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Offline AndrewG

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Ethanol and rubber parts
« on: November 15, 2014, 11:56:14 PM »
I've been reading about the problems caused by the addition of ethanol in modern gasoline.  Seems that it is recommended to replace rubber parts that come in contact with gas, such as fuel pump diaphragms and carburetor parts, as the ethanol will destroy them and cause a fire hazard.

Does anyone have recommendation s regarding this and which parts to be replaced on the 1980 pinto 2.3 L.

Thanks
AJ

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2014, 06:51:04 AM »
Haven't had any problems so far with that skunk pi$$, I don't think there's a problem unless the system is drained then the rubber dries up and gets brittle..
Art
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Offline AndrewG

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2014, 09:16:40 AM »
From what I have read and heard, the rubber just needs to be in contact with ethanol to be damaged and potentially cause a fire.

Here is one video discussing this issue:


Offline amc49

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2014, 08:38:20 PM »
Much, much worse if the car sits with no driving for long periods. If used day to day it is pretty much transparent until a long passage of time. The damage to pot metal like what carbs are made of easily as bad as to rubber. When car sits the ethanol then phase separates from the gasoline portion by drawing water and the water is what is necessary to produce the byproduct acids that cause much of the trouble. Drive car commonly to keep fuel fresh and much less trouble. These are early cars with vented systems and not sealed nearly so well as today's computer cars which can sit for longer periods without the fuel separating.

You can clean parts with ethanol laced fuel outside on a humid day and draw water into the mix in less than 5 minutes, the fuel then turns cloudy, the mark of separated fuel.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2014, 08:50:01 PM »
Sh!t, leave a car sit for 2 days and the thing don't want to start with dam skunk p*ss... ::) >:(
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 07:15:17 PM »
Ethanol laced fuel is somewhat harder to light off when stone cold motor. Why we always lit the pro stocker off with gas squirted into intake when running alcohol in it.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 08:54:52 PM »
Yep, did the same when we ran the Altered started a lot quicker.  We have one station here that has ethanol free gas but it's 91 and they get $4.16 a gal, bummer...  :( :(
Art
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Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 09:16:44 PM »
I'm pretty lucky here. I have access to 3 stations, on my side of town, selling ethanol free gas. One has high test, but damn, it's close to $6 a gallon right now. Been running half and half for daily driving, and just high test on track days. It's even more expensive at pir. I was just shocked that it was still fairly easy to get in this prius driving hippyfest I live in.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2014, 10:11:04 PM »
WOW $6.00 a gal that sucks, you can buy Avgas cheaper,lol..
Art
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Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 10:15:49 PM »
WOW $6.00 a gal that sucks, you can buy Avgas cheaper,lol..

We have horrible fuel taxes here. No sales tax, so they get it where they can.
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Offline dga57

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 10:17:39 PM »
Wow!  That is some price!  I run ethanol-free regular in both my Pinto and my Rolls-Royce.  It is currently selling for $2.99 per gallon here.  Filled up the truck with regular gas from Sheetz in Fishersville VA today (10% ethanol) which was $2.49.
 
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Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2014, 10:22:05 PM »
Regular pump gas is about $3.25 all around town. Super is about .25 more. And that's waaay down.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2014, 10:23:58 PM »
We have horrible fuel taxes here. No sales tax, so they get it where they can.
Dam gubment rip off.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Art
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2014, 10:26:01 PM »
Regular pump gas is about $3.25 all around town. Super is about .25 more. And that's waaay down.
And that's still high, here it's $2.99 but in Phoenix it's down to $2.65..
Art
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Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2014, 10:27:16 PM »
Dam gubment rip off.. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Now they're pushing a shadey-butt street repair tax too.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 10:39:17 PM »
Now they're pushing a shadey-butt street repair tax too.
You know somebody is lining their pockets, greedy basturds..
Art
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2014, 10:46:08 PM »
$2.51 in NW Arkansas.
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Offline AndrewG

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2014, 09:08:22 AM »
OK, thanks for all those gas price updates...... :o
Getting back to the original point of this post,  anyone have any problems with fuel pumps and carbs as a result of using gas with ethanol.  I don't have access to ethanol free gas here, so I'm wondering if I should be updating my carb and fuel pump to avoid problems. 

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2014, 09:33:48 AM »
No problems in any of my vehicles but I don't let them go dry either.
Art
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Offline Pintosopher

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2014, 02:33:48 PM »
Aside from the corrosive nature of Blended Gas/Ethanol on metal pieces, There is a real danger of using ethanol fuel even at 10%  to gasoline ratio.  The original fuel hoses ( rubber) were never designed for any ethanol exposure .  Those Hoses were a Nitrile rubber compound and subsequent exposure to any ethanol or even that Bastard brew with MTBE  caused fuel leaks everywhere that a clamp was used.  In summation your rubber components must be made of a Fluoroelastome r based rubber blend to fight off the degradation  and rot of hoses and gaskets.  On the Hose front , if you want to stay ahead of the EPA and the CARB Nazis , buy  Gates "Barricade" hose for fuel leakage or Permeation ( New vapor  leakage laws)  and buy the Correct hose for either EFI  or Carbureted use.  Fuel filler neck issues can crop up too.  Look for the SAE J30R9 marking as the minimum standard, and SAE J30R14T1 for the latest permeation for vapors.  Do not ignore this, as a vapor leak can set the car on fire in an enclosed space with  mortal results for property and life.  When the EPA goes to 15 % Ethanol , this whole circus will begin again with older cars.
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Offline amc49

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2014, 03:15:28 PM »
What are you going to update to??? I have not seen any pump advertised as for ethanol, they will use whatever rubber diaphragms around they have as the pump for an old car is not intended for long use anyway, the way new parts are now. Carb? Maybe needle, haven't seen any ethanol pump diaphragms yet but then haven't looked hard either. The normal parts will run for a good while as long as vehicle does not SIT, the bug-a-boo there.

10% ethanol can run as high as 20% in the real world if you measure it, why your mileage goes all over the map now. The dealers here check all cars for that percentage to make you pay for any too high to void warranty. It happens all the time. If they go to 15% you can count on some stations having 25% as the ethanol component is cheaper than gas now and they purposely mix in more to lower your mileage to make you buy more gas.

Offline AndrewG

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2014, 03:28:00 PM »
.....There is a real danger of using ethanol fuel even at 10%  to gasoline ratio.  The original fuel hoses ( rubber) were never designed for any ethanol exposure .  In summation your rubber components must be made of a Fluoroelastome r based rubber blend to fight off the degradation  and rot of hoses and gaskets.  Look for the SAE J30R9 marking as the minimum standard, and SAE J30R14T1 for the latest permeation for vapors.  Do not ignore this, as a vapor leak can set the car on fire in an enclosed space with  mortal results for property and life. 

pintosopher,
Thanks for the detailed info and confirmation.  I thought there might be some danger after reading up on this and watching some videos.

.....What are you going to update to??? I have not seen any pump advertised as for ethanol, they will use whatever rubber diaphragms around.......

amc49,
Watch the video I posted earlier.  They discuss replacement parts for fuel pumps that are designed for Ethanol.  (Below is a link to a video discussing carburetors and where to purchase parts that can handle Ethanol).


Offline amc49

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2014, 06:40:38 PM »
So I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.

I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to. Many needles have stainless bodies and will never magnetize, even so first time I've ever heard that one. The needles will move around but enough to magnetize? Having trouble with that one, could find no evidence on the web of it either.

I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.

The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loading.

Offline amc49

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2014, 06:51:43 PM »
More. The vapor causing fire issue has ALWAYS been present on any cars before emission years ('72 or so) when they truly began to seal the fuel systems. Even then the early '70s and 80s ones still leak vapor if the car heats up say in hot garage. Hopefully carbon canister catches that but if saturated no way. It comes right out the vent there.

Ethanol brings more trouble to the table but not not that much more except like I said, if the car sits. It by itself is no reason to suddenly start worrying about fire unless you already have the issue to begin with. Modern pressurized FI brings 100X the fire dangers that ethanol does. No such thing as a small leak there or flamethrower. Why you see so many more cars burned on the side of the road in the last 20 years. Almost all will be FI cars.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2014, 07:54:47 PM »
So I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.

I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to.

I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.

The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loading.
    Satery
So I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.

I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to.

I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.

The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loadin
         Saturday night live BS. I love it!!!! Truer words were never spoken. I looked for Daytona Parts on the net and still haven't found it. Just more BS from the land of fruit and nuts. Hope someone finds Daytona Parts cause it sounded great, but then so did cars that run on water and 100 mpg carbs.
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Offline AndrewG

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2014, 08:19:19 PM »
Here's the link to Daytona Parts:

http://www.daytonaparts.com

Notice they state "Ethanol Resistant Parts" right on the home page.
Maybe it's all BS.  Let me know what you guys think.

Offline amc49

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2014, 08:48:20 PM »
Yes, they do and then brag about the aluminum body of the super trick needle/seat idea they have there or simply the industry design merely inverted. Aluminum CORRODES in ethanol once enough moisture hits it, and why don't they make them out of stainless and then last forever? Cheap company is why.  The inverted needle seat they show there will flow LESS than the OEM type will and I could care less who thinks otherwise. And control the fuel level? Only the size of the hole does that, the graph they give has all these points made up by them and no real world proof of that at all, in short laughable. The first baseline they give of ideal fuel air across the range is impossible in a dead straight line, A/F ratio does not work in a straight line and not evenly remotely tied to the real world there.  Making the rest of the graph a child's pipe dream. I like the idea of one 'universal' 1 bbl.carb to fit every engine from the '30s to now too, the visions of a madman. Making a carb have an adjustable main jet does NOT qualify it to be able to run on every engine out there. Not nearly. That they would claim that tells me all I need to know about the company.......

I personally having seen the website wouldn't buy spit from those people.

Carb made of zinc/aluminum alloy like all others, it will corrode parts just as fast. The most damage I've found in my own personal stuff was in carb metal itself rather than rubber parts if they sit, FYI. Under the varnish you begin to find weird corrosion like you've never seen before. It gets worse down low where the water droplets accumulate from the ethanol pulling water out of the air coming in carb vents. Why I say don't worry about the rubber, it may well be the carb body itself that self destructs there, the power valve threaded hole on a 5200 commonly corrodes the threads and seat out of it to not seal. The ethanol in a steel pinto fuel tank will quadruple the rust powder brought into carb as well when the tank walls rust. Meaning filters will fill up like lightning.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2014, 08:54:47 PM »
Wait... So the spit isn't ethanol resistant either?!
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Offline amc49

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2014, 09:00:33 PM »
I correct for my statement that the needle /seat they showed was flat, the pic in the video was not clear being too small but on the site they show it closer, it IS angled to center the needle tip as well but not at as sharp an angle and the lesser weight of aluminum will not self center as well as the steel needle a with sharper angle. But that didn't stop them from saying it was 'better' at all. More self-bullsh-t.

Offline sedandelivery

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Re: Ethanol and rubber parts
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2014, 06:54:30 AM »
My experience with ethanol problems was with small engines. It plays  havoc with 2 cycle such as chain saws, leaf blowers, and weed whackers, and the snow blowers have to have their carbs redone every winter. They sell expensive canned ethanol-free gas we might try. The vehicles (dump truck and cars) not so much. I think the seasonal sitting of the small engines have a lot to do with it.