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Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2014, 07:08:20 PM »
The manifold there has two levels, an upper and a lower. If the pics I've seen (not the best quality mind you) show the decks there correctly, then the driverside two barrels are the upper deck. Running the carb backward like picced there is a bad mistake, the front barrels then feed into the lower deck and it flowing by itself flows like absolute CRAP. Best way I can think of to toss 50% of the all around performance that manifold can make.


Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2014, 07:33:14 PM »
I sat it on like the 79 bobcat had it pic'd. Yes the driver's side is the upper side; however, the lower side where i have the butterfly -- looks to have much more volume and flow to the 4 cyls. the top side seems smaller in area and primarily feeds what looks like 1 and 4. If I turn it how you say the linkage will be next to impossible. I might be able to rig it to pull at the bottom of the linkage, but that would likely really stress the cable.

Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2014, 08:08:38 PM »
Your stuff and do as you will but I'm telling you, a mistake with your thinking. Why the linkage is made the way it is. The primary is ALWAYS smaller than secondary, ever look at a spreadbore carb before? It's for better driveability at slow cruising and better mileage as well. The primary feeds the top of the port as well, where 80% of the port flow on a 2.3 is, they are DEAD when feeding the bottom part of the port like you propose.

Open area is NOT necessarily flow and often the indicator of lack of it. I'd think about why no intake on the planet is not simply an open box with short hole directly into the head yet you have never seen that except on dog engines with no power.  In my view bolt that carb up like that and toss 10 hp right off the bat. The longer runners of the higher level make more torque at lower rpm.  Go to the opposite level and all that goes out the window.  One of the biggest shortfalls of a stock 2.3 is that the intake runners were too short. You're doing that all over with a different manifold.

I note of course the Bobcat has the carb backward as well. Funny how most people who do things like that will then tell you later of course how the car was so fast and had so much power. Blah, blah, blah....... Then take them for a ride in yours and they are astounded of course. I always laughed at that.

Yes, lots of places for that crackerjack linkage to come loose repeatedly to cause trouble, dial the linkage in, be sure it works correctly and to wide open and back fully to dead idle; then stake, loctite or even spotweld the major parts of it solidly in place and it will never ever trouble you. But you have to be dead competent at setting it up correctly first. I could make that setup dropdead bulletproof.

But again, your stuff.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2014, 08:31:57 PM »
Eh, just tie piece of speaker wire to the linkage, run it thru a firewall hole and tie to the pedal. Or if you want to do it right, use some duck tape.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2014, 08:41:11 PM »
Momma always said there would ALWAYS be at least ONE in every crowd......... ............LO L

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2014, 08:45:16 PM »
Eh, just tie piece of speaker wire to the linkage, run it thru a firewall hole and tie to the pedal. Or if you want to do it right, use some duck tape.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2014, 08:14:52 PM »
tonight's update--- called offenhauser and spoke to their tech. The 6114dp is designed to have the primaries dump in the lower larger port. you want the lower deck to run as the constant. Condensation and residual would gather if the secondaries ported to the lower. That's what he had said! Thanks for everyone's help here though. I'll try to follow up with how it turns out once we get above 30 degrees.

Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2014, 06:11:54 PM »
You will have condensation and residual in whichever deck is not used commonly. What unused intake volume does, simple physics. ALL dual ports do that. From normal reversion that all engines do. You will always get a reversion spike when the intake stream then hits a closing intake valve, some bounces backwards. Having a manifold that has part of the volume in downtime allows that to stack up in that space. One that is active all the time keeps that residual swept out.

Hot Rod Magazine March 1981 shows the correct way to mount the carb, can't help it if people want to throw away free power to make something easier, I watched it happen (as well as corrected it) at the garage all the time. We worked on and built hotrods of all types. Seeing an Offy on a car made it easy, one of the first things done would be yank that for an Edelbrock if one existed.

 The Offy guy saying one thing means nothing, when you take people who could not make a Quarter Pounder 3 times the same way right and then promote them and move them further out into society, well what you get. I hear of lots of retarded information coming out of the speed parts makers nowadays and why Offy is still (not) killing the world with sales now.

The Offy cutaway manifold used for nationwide ads shows lower deck used but it is only half the volume of the upper.

The whole dual port thing was a sad lackluster gimmick when Edelbrock was stomping the crap out of them with repeat product like 180 hi-rise, Torker, Tarantula, the list goes on and on. Edelbrock actually redesigned to come out with totally new product never seen before every time. Offy takes the same crap 360 Equaflow and then adds a cheap divider to say they have totally redesigned which was a copout, any existing that were converted to dual port  had the same shortcomings as the unconverted part. Most like the 2.3 one have no true 'runners' as such, they are simply convoluted and constantly varying space that does nothing as far as engine tuning through length or diameter. '50s company still stuck in the '50s even now. Why any Edelbrock manifold will almost always surpass an OFFY by a LOT in most back to back tests. They did back then as well. In the case of our AMC engines like 50 Hp. difference between a Torker and a supposedly high rpm manifold the Offy 360. It couldn't touch the Edelbrock.

Your car, do as you will.......... .........wait till you see the mileage set up like that, it should suk using the shorter bigger runner and low down in the port 99% of the time. Longer smaller runners increase part throttle fuel mileage, more physics. Looking around on the web at others including V8 ones showed differences, some had lower on primary, some had higher on primary and bigger area runner or smaller runner on primary, expected nonsensical application like Offy often does.

After looking at enough V8 dual port pics something insidious even begins to show. They set up the primary to flow WORSE on purpose so that the driver perceives fantastic gains as the secondaries open up since the primary performs so bad. Or catering to the seat of the pants for advertisement there rather than  giving you more all around power doing what would have been more logical. Can't brag nearly so much doing that. They are actually killing achievable low and mid range on their own product to bump up top end only. That's just plain cynical to me.

Luck.......... .......

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2014, 08:51:22 PM »
Every application is different, the true test would be to try it both ways and record the outcome... Just sayin......
Art
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Offline pinto bismol

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2014, 03:34:25 PM »
lots of well meaning replies in this thread. too bad they seem to conflict. who to listen to? What's gonna work? Im with the guy who said to try em all...well.... maybe not the duct tape, and record your results.
good luck rowdy!
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Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2014, 07:33:11 PM »
One other thing......... .............. .the link to the linkage kit on page 1 post 5 clearly shows by the pic it is an Offenhauser kit. Kinda blows that Offy guys' information into the water there. He doesn't even know what their own linkage kit works like.......... .............o r why it would be set up like that. Another ex-McDonald's employee?

If by simply using my wits I can tear one way of doing a thing to shreds but not the other way no way would I be wasting time doing it twice, that's why I have the brain, to weed that out with logical reasoning. Why bother if you are going to not rely on thinking to avoid wasted work. And I RARELY end up doing things like this twice, the first time it works well enough, there is no need. I have worked so many carb/intake combinations now I cannot count, you get an eye for what pretty much works and what doesn't. So far I have not run across the Offy manifold that I've liked yet. I've got an Offy 2X4 bbl. AMC intake that looks cool but I'd bet more than a dollar it won't touch my Torker at all in power output.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2014, 11:59:30 PM »
There's a few tid bits on a racing site, that has a lot 2.3 racers on it, and they all seem to mount as amc49 is saying. Not a lot on there about the 390cfm, but some. Also, I'd get your $ back on the linkage, and get a spring loaded cable setup. Simple is better.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2014, 11:07:09 AM »
Also, I'd get your $ back on the linkage, and get a spring loaded cable setup. Simple is better.

As Rocky Balboa would say, "ABSOLUTELY."

Offline rowdyrunabout

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2014, 07:47:48 PM »
OK, say it... "I told you so." Put the Holley 8007/ 390cfm on the offy dp. Had a lot more/ faster/ throttle/ etc. But
I walked around the car and was shocked to see header pipes 3 and 4 glowing like the iron under a blacksmith's hammer! Have a 3" header narrowed ton 2.5 out. I do have a muffler. My machine shop said sounded like the exhaust wasn't getting out fast enough. On line it said fuel was not getting burned causing it to burn out the header.
so I guess I'm back to too much carb------or the offy intake really is crap. And I'm back to what to do. I hate to put a stock carb back on and go back to no power. Maybe one last thought. The carb had problems. Did look like one primary was dumping more than the other.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2014, 08:32:25 PM »
Why not put a lower EFI and small Autolite 2100 on it???..
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2014, 05:15:38 PM »
'Did look like one primary was dumping more than the other. '

One really generally cannot tell that but if you are sure you can, then something afoul in carb that should be easy enough to find.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2015, 02:16:27 PM »
Just remembered a story in popular hot rod a zillion years ago where they had a running story about a duel port 360 intake on a sbc. On the dyno they found more hp by cutting the divider at the head surface back .750 (3/4"). Never said why they did it. I think  they also put a radius on the divider after the removal of the .750. Any ideas on this????
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Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2015, 07:25:46 PM »
The divider may well help low end torque but it is a choke to top end power. As well, with no divider the port is round and wave tuning then has some effect, with a divider you can kiss any effect from wave tuning goodbye. Divided intake runners cease to be true runners at all if they are half circles, they don't flow for spit on a flowbench. Why the whole Offy 'dual port' gimmick was just that, a gimmick only. The 'C' type competition one did away with the divider entirely.

Offline postalpony

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2015, 01:27:43 AM »
Hi Guys
Just jumping in here with my setup.  A lower EFI manifold modified to fit an
oval port head, opened up to create a small open chamber for fuel distribution
between cylinders. I machined an adaptor plate for the 390 Holley carb, this seems
to work very well, as several people have discovered. lol
1980 Hatchback was a "Postal Unit" on the
west coast in it's early life. Now residing
in Ohio, But we don't haul the U.S. Mail anymore;
 Now all we do is HAUL!
 5th gear 4700 rpm & still pullin'= 113+  mph
 
 UPDATE-83.762 mph in 4th gear As verified by a W Va State Trooper-WITH 1 GEAR TO GO 6-2-11

Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2015, 07:50:45 PM »
And obvious the major problem there with that intake. When you lower divider walls to create a plenum the runner entries will flow worse because you have removed the turn radii at the top of the runners that eases vertical flow into sideways. The outsides are much worse in that respect than the insides. I personally would put more plenum on top with a spacer and leave the top 1/2"-1" of intake alone (radius the runner edges slightly) so that the flow enters the runners better. That sudden right angle turn when the mix hits the flats to have to turn sideways is a power killer. Problem also, the extended plenum higher makes for hood clearance issues IIRC. A 2'' thick spacer like Esslinger looks gangbusters there. Just gotta fit it under the hood.


Offline postalpony

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2015, 12:43:30 AM »
Hey amc49
Wher did you get your info from?  Are you an engineer?  I have been doing
this kind things for 40+ years with people telling me "that won't work", and
trust me they have had to eat their words.  Have you ran any tests that says that
my modifications are  in your words "are a major problem"?  I would like to
know why this manifold is so bad & works so well ??   Just wondering.
 
 
 
1980 Hatchback was a "Postal Unit" on the
west coast in it's early life. Now residing
in Ohio, But we don't haul the U.S. Mail anymore;
 Now all we do is HAUL!
 5th gear 4700 rpm & still pullin'= 113+  mph
 
 UPDATE-83.762 mph in 4th gear As verified by a W Va State Trooper-WITH 1 GEAR TO GO 6-2-11

Offline amc49

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2015, 04:45:32 AM »
You don't have to be an engineer to realize that two runners that gently drop down to gradually swing out will flow different from two where the mix has to hit a flat then hard turn sideways, but I have been porting things for easily that long as well. With lots of study on how air flows and DOESN'T flow, which is just as important. The information is out there, you just have to look.

Nobody said manifold was bad, just the quick copout that most take that makes it worse with porting work. Raise the plenum up instead of down which crams room tighter and it allows more air turn space and it gets even better but if you don't do it you'll never know. Basic rule of thumb-the straighter the port the better the flow, if port must turn then doing it gently ALWAYS flows better than hard forced turns. The outboard runners there already have a pretty hard turn before one even thinks about opening it up to make the turn even harder, the manifold was designed for dry flow (EFI) not wet and why it does that. When your reversion pulse from closed intake valve filters back up the runner it will then clearly interfere with mix feeding into the inner runners. You want that pulse to go UP to dissipate into the bigger plenum area, not sideways where it can mess with your other pair at the entry. Removing much of the top turn into the outboards has predisposed the reversion to do that.

Most use the one inch adapter, two inch is far better flow wise, put one of each on manifold bottom, look in the top and compare and it becomes instantly obvious. You then do not have to butcher up the top of the lower part other than radiusing the hole edges. Much of the thought needs to change up slightly depending on whether 2 or 4 bbl. used too.

Air needs room to turn and always........ ....cram the turn into a shorter area and you always lose flow. Why you can throw a one inch spacer on top of almost any 4 bbl. V8 intake out there and pick up 10-20 hp. The extra height then allows for a more gradual turn into the top of the runner and shields the turn to a degree from the straightline inertial effect of full open butterflies.

A very few manifolds actually intend to hit a flat to slow air down so it can make a turn better but the distance doing that is generally very critical and off only 1/4" in spacing can cost half the power of the intake. The Smokeram SBC single 4 bbl. crossram was like that, just like the 2X4 bbl. crossrams. They were extremely sensitive to distance spacing and easy to screw them up. We used to run the AMC version used on 2X4 390 AMX SS/C Hurst replica cars.

At the family garage we ported out scads of different engine heads and other parts, lots of SBC and BBC as well as plenty of others. I personally ported plenty of inline 4 and 2 stroke bike as well. We built lots of drag race engines too, the GM dealer across the street flooded us with work.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: How does a 4 bbl fit on my pinto
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2015, 06:11:32 PM »
OK, say it... "I told you so." Put the Holley 8007/ 390cfm on the offy dp. Had a lot more/ faster/ throttle/ etc. But
I walked around the car and was shocked to see header pipes 3 and 4 glowing like the iron under a blacksmith's hammer! Have a 3" header narrowed ton 2.5 out. I do have a muffler. My machine shop said sounded like the exhaust wasn't getting out fast enough. On line it said fuel was not getting burned causing it to burn out the header.
so I guess I'm back to too much carb------or the offy intake really is crap. And I'm back to what to do. I hate to put a stock carb back on and go back to no power. Maybe one last thought. The carb had problems. Did look like one primary was dumping more than the other.
   Want to sell that linkage kit? I know a guy looking for one. Let me know if you do.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.