85 Guests, 1 User
Seq23

Author Topic: electric fuel pump safety  (Read 5595 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ToniJ1960

  • Pinto Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • FeedBack: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Fifth year Anniversary Windows User
electric fuel pump safety
« on: December 03, 2013, 07:58:05 PM »
 Im thinking maybe I will put in an electric fuel pump and change my lines all at once and get it over with.

 Two things ae on my mind before I decide.

 Whats a good one thats still inexpensive and how to mount it.

 Also, they say they should be wired through the oil pressuire switch. My light sender was removed and I have an oil pressure gauge now with the little plastic tube that sends oil to the gauge. What are my options for safety?

Offline amc49

  • PCCA VIP
  • Pinto Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 1256
  • FeedBack: +242/-1
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 08:16:31 PM »
Patch in a 'tee' to put the idiot light pressure switch back in, added benefit is you can have both light and gauge, a good setup. Light alerts you to look at gauge in time of need.......... .........may want to put in a bypass to temporarily bypass switch if car sits. Normally enough fuel remains in carb to get engine running long enough to shut out light and bring pump online but sometimes you want to be sure you have fuel bowl filled, can't do that with the pressure switch system. Say if car sat for 2 weeks in summer. You'd be amazed at how quick fuel can evap from a fuel bowl in summer heat.

Offline ToniJ1960

  • Pinto Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • FeedBack: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Fifth year Anniversary Windows User
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 01:19:58 AM »
Patch in a 'tee' to put the idiot light pressure switch back in, added benefit is you can have both light and gauge, a good setup. Light alerts you to look at gauge in time of need.......... .........may want to put in a bypass to temporarily bypass switch if car sits. Normally enough fuel remains in carb to get engine running long enough to shut out light and bring pump online but sometimes you want to be sure you have fuel bowl filled, can't do that with the pressure switch system. Say if car sat for 2 weeks in summer. You'd be amazed at how quick fuel can evap from a fuel bowl in summer heat.

 Is there any option other than that?

 And where is best to mount an electric ump by the tank or in front? The one I saw just looks like it has a strap around it.

Offline HOSS429

  • Pinto Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 181
  • FeedBack: +22/-0
  • old ford guy

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Fifth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 05:41:43 AM »
mount it near the tank .. pumps push better than they pull .. i`ve had an electric on my V6 pinto for 9 years now .. i will try to find out what kind .. a little square thing .. i got it a advanced auto or orielys ..one of those places ..

Offline Reeves1

  • Pinto Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1932
  • FeedBack: +104/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • BAWS302

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Signature Fifth year Anniversary Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 05:49:37 AM »
Google: inline fuel pumps

Here are a couple examples

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Diy/12V-In-Line-Fuel-Pump/8144354.p

I'll be using one that is more expensive....I have more motor to feed though !

https://www.holley.com/12-700.asp

Offline amc49

  • PCCA VIP
  • Pinto Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 1256
  • FeedBack: +242/-1
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 05:49:58 AM »
The pump circuit must have a positive on/off switch to work it.

Mount pump close to tank and low but for sure clearing all rear end movement. Easier for a pump to push than pull.

You realize of course that a stock mechanical pump up on motor is just as reliable as the electric one if things are corrected in tank pickup and lines are clear right? You're changing things that may not have that much impact on your issue. The electric pump can run into exact same issues as the mechanical one if you don't fix your troublesome fuel pickup in tank. Just thought you should know.......... ...

Offline ToniJ1960

  • Pinto Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • FeedBack: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Fifth year Anniversary Windows User
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 11:53:24 AM »
 Im not sure yet what the issue is it could be the sock filter or the hoses or a hose. Or it could be the pump. I just thought for a minute an electric fuel pump might b eeasier to install I could even leave the old one on the engine I guess.

 I always preferred the original parts, and I remember my thoughts the first time I heard of someone having a fuel pump inside the gas tank.

 But its getting cold Im getting old and just want an easier way :)

Offline Wittsend

  • Pinto Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • FeedBack: +239/-0

  • Total Badges: 8
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Mobile User Topic Starter Poll Voter 1000 Posts Linux User Windows User Fifth year Anniversary
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 11:54:14 AM »
As to the wired:
All the injected Ford cars have the "impact" shut off switch. It is about one inch square and should be mounted in the very rear of the car. It simply wires in-line with 12V+. These can be found in self serve yards in the trunk area. This switch should work equally well for an electric pump on a carburetor set-up.
  You should also have a second shut off switch within reach of the driving position.  Carburetor flooding, and thus, fire potential necessitates this switch.  I would NOT use the ignition switch as the only on/off switch for an electric fuel pump. The switch can be suspect to carry the constant current.  And, in a panic you could easily lock the steering column.  While both these switches can be in a constant on position (until need to deactivate) you can use a relay off the ignition switch for convenience to initially be the source of power.

So, in summary the setup should be as follows:

Ignition switch (on/off) to fuel pump relay sourced from a point that can handle the current, - to dash mounted on/off switch, - to Ford "impact" switch, - to the fuel pump.

Lastly, for older cars that do not get driven much I DO recommend an electric fuel pump. Otherwise you are left to heavily crank the car until the float bowl fills up, - or use a hose, funnel and cup of gas to refill.

Tom

Offline ToniJ1960

  • Pinto Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • FeedBack: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Fifth year Anniversary Windows User
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 12:46:23 PM »
 Is that impact shut off switch a part I can buy at an auto pars place like AZ or OReilly? Theyre a lot closer to me than any of the junk yards are.

 And do these electriv fuel pumps need a bypass line back to the tank or can they run ok without one so if the bowl is full is and the needle is seated it wont hurt it?

 I wonder if theres a good way to make something to send 12v to it only when the engine is running and add in a start up on time to the circuit?

Offline HOSS429

  • Pinto Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 181
  • FeedBack: +22/-0
  • old ford guy

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Fifth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 01:35:35 PM »

  You should also have a second shut off switch within reach of the driving position.  Carburetor flooding, and thus, fire potential necessitates this switch.  I would NOT use the ignition switch as the only on/off switch for an electric fuel pump. :

i had forgotten about that .. i have a hidden toggle off/on switch for my electric pump i use as a theft devise ....

Offline Wittsend

  • Pinto Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2043
  • FeedBack: +239/-0

  • Total Badges: 8
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Mobile User Topic Starter Poll Voter 1000 Posts Linux User Windows User Fifth year Anniversary
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 05:25:48 PM »
I do not know if the regular parts stores carry the shut off switch.  Assuming you have a pump in the approximate 4-6 PSI range or a regulator (you should  use one  anyway) then, no I do not believe you need a return line.  More often than not the return lines are on the injected cars running double digit PSI. The return line both bleeds off excess regulated pressure and by the recirculating process cools the fuel.

Note that some manufactures use an oil pressure switch and when the pressure goes too low the current cuts off.  As you noted there is a timed bypass needed for starting. Also there can be situations where a fuel leak can still occur because the engine continues to run.  Not every tragic accident cause the engine to stop running.

Offline amc49

  • PCCA VIP
  • Pinto Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 1256
  • FeedBack: +242/-1
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 07:24:46 PM »
As he says. The 'impact' switch is not necessary, they only started using them when the fuel pressure bumped way up for FI, a small leak that causes a fire in wreck becomes a misting fogger with higher pressure FI to produce explosions rather than fires. The impact switch can be mounted anywhere, but absolutely needs to be mounted in correct orientation to work best. Just like the car you get it from, and only available from junkyards pretty much. I never sold a one at the parts store ever and thinking can't get them. Dealer part only.

Anywhere around 5-7 psi pump will do, and yes it can deadhead with needle closed and no harm but depending on the one you get may not be quite as reliable as the mechanical one is longterm. The mechanical pump will pump trash through that can bring the electric one down depending on the type, diaphragm or impeller. The impeller type can scar up with dirt or sand going through it.

Ford FI needs no main pump power bypass because PCM is set up to run pump for 2 seconds at key on to prime the FI even if you don't crank. Modern ones don't bypass fuel back to tank anymore, rather they use a 'driver module' that speeds up or slows down pump based on demand, it makes pump last longer but PCM has to control that feature.



' Im NOT SURE YET what the issue is it could be the sock filter or the hoses or a hose. Or it could be the pump. I just thought for a minute an electric fuel pump might b eeasier to install I could even leave the old one on the engine I guess.

 I always preferred the original parts, and I remember my thoughts the first time I heard of someone having a fuel pump inside the gas tank.

 But its getting cold Im getting old and just want an easier way........... .'


Caps by me.

Your stuff and do what you will but this is not easier. Throwing parts at it anyway as long as you do not positively verify that tank and sock and lines are clean and open. Nothing wrong with electric pump idea except if lines or sock clogged, you haven't cured anything in that case. No way would I be doing any of this without the lines and other known clean and working FIRST, and then most likely no problem by then anyway. Pumping through the old pump is not intuitive either, what if it is part of the problem too? In short, casting around for cures that may or may not work but not dealing directly with the problem there to get to 100% working perfect and DONE. Murphy's Law generally doubles up on you when yo do that.

No insult or injury meant to anyone at all but having done this stuff for many years I've learned to fix what's broke, not what I think is broke, two totally different things there. I watched that happen so much at the parts store it was incredible, and thousands wasted on ideas that 50% of the time only burned cash and patience. Many people get close to problem fixes but then meandering ideas make them drop sight of the ball to fumble around for a good while.

Luck.......... ..........

Offline ToniJ1960

  • Pinto Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • FeedBack: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Fifth year Anniversary Windows User
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 10:13:35 PM »
 No I meant just leaving the old pump on the engine not inline still at all. And just mostly thinking wqhat I can do to try and have everything on hand to get it done once under the car rather than twice under the car. I know the first ting to do is pull off the hose from the tank to the line that goes to the pump and see if gas comes out of it. Im planning on changing the rubber hose in any even I know theyre as old as the car is probably.

 In fact if theres two hoses from the tank or one from and one to, how do I tell the one that goes to the pump? The top or bottom one? Its been 10 years at least since I saw the metal cover on the tank that the hoses connect on. I think theres two that go to it. The last time I saw it was when I changed the sock well that was on my 79.

Offline amc49

  • PCCA VIP
  • Pinto Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 1256
  • FeedBack: +242/-1
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 12:40:46 AM »
Bigger one goes to pump, smaller one comes back. provided of course one is not an emission hose. Been a long time since I was under a Pinto. Mustang II? Yeah, I got that.

Funny though, I now have '80 Pinto wagon and the Mustang? She gave up the ghost in the great hailstorm of '95, the one with the 6 inch diameter stones that destroyed half of downtown Fort Worth.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

  • Pinto Sr. Master
  • ******
  • Posts: 3105
  • FeedBack: +540/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Signature Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 06:59:51 AM »
Just never been a fan of electric pumps, don't know how many times I've stopped to help someone stranded on the side of the road because of a dead electric pump, to me they're just one more thing to take dump, of course I know some that never had a problem with them too, lol, guess it's a matter of preference.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline amc49

  • PCCA VIP
  • Pinto Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 1256
  • FeedBack: +242/-1
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2013, 03:32:02 PM »
The modern era ones that run inside fuel tank are marvels as long as one does not run them out of gas. There was a recall on Focus cars over them and pumps yanked but both I have I simply dropped tank and cleaned out the sock, which was the problem,and reused same pumps. Cars have now gone for years after doing it. The initial issue was ethanol laced fuel being used carried water based trash with it, the makers realized pretty quick they were going to be sued into bankruptcy if they didn't get a handle on it. And why now Exxon trucks all ethanol rather than shove it through pipelines. Doing so cost them many millions in pipeline damage.

I put plenty of electric pumps on street cars back in the day but they did not last as long as mechanical ones to me either.

Offline 74WagonMeadowGreen

  • Pinto Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • FeedBack: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 3
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Fifth year Anniversary Poll Voter
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2014, 04:10:54 PM »
My 78 is up for emission testing and failed. I tore the holley apart and did discover the power valve screws came loose and while in there did an overhaul. I installed all new rubber parts for good measure (we have methanol which does wonders to rubber) and upon reassembling, the carb flooded (new design viton float valve). I quickly took the top off, and returned the original float valve, solving the problem. One change I made earlier this year is putting an electric pump on as my car sits alot and it saves much cranking. I fear it could be providing too much pressure, and even when not flooding, overpump the delicate power valve structure causing to to run too rich. Any thoughts?

Offline 74WagonMeadowGreen

  • Pinto Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • FeedBack: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 3
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Fifth year Anniversary Poll Voter
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2014, 01:34:13 PM »
Never mind folks, my 78 passed just fine this morning. Good for another year. One caveat... she may have to go soon, much as I adore this car. My daughter is turning 16 and I will need to get her a car. I cannot afford to keep it and another, so if anybody is interested in a classic, 53000 ORIGINAL, perfect, pristine driving, well-kept Pinto, this is it! I have done a lot of work and it shows. I have all original purchase docs and books from new, it was sold new from Goodro Ford in Denver, and sports the original decal. It is a stellar vehicle. My friend put it on a lift when we put a new Catalytic convertor in... not one spec of rust!

Offline amc49

  • PCCA VIP
  • Pinto Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 1256
  • FeedBack: +242/-1
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 4
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2014, 01:20:39 AM »
FYI, fuel pressure has no effect on power valve at all except what would be caused by higher fuel level. And that would be very nominal, too high fuel pressure will flood the plugs long before any effect is seen by the power valve. Power valve operates from vacuum, a completely separate system there.

RSM

  • Guest
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2014, 08:49:12 PM »
The power valve is vacuum sensitive. At idle when the vacuum is highest the valve is closed. The purpose of the valve is to enrich the secondary fuel mixture when the vacuum drops ( moderate acceleration or WOT). One thing that will blow the power valve is a backfire. Using an electric fuel pump to prime the carb will not ever hurt the power valve.

Offline hotrod_man36

  • Pinto Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
  • FeedBack: +26/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • hotrod_man36

  • Total Badges: 7
    Badges: (View All)
    Signature Tenth year Anniversary Poll Voter Linux User Mobile User Webmaster Fifth year Anniversary
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2014, 10:12:12 PM »
If you really want to put a electric fuel pump in your pinto give me a call I will help you in every thing you need. Parts and information. Ask several of the guys that know me from here on the pinto club site they will tell you I have help them with there problems buy phone and they have called me back to thank me. Time and information doesn't cost any thing to help. I have many years as a mechanic and shop time under my belt and build race engine now as a hobby. I enjoy helping my fellow Pinto and Hot Rodders . Call me any time at 304-952-7498. Thanks Chester
I am a ford guy and a pinto Fan.I have a 77 cruise wagon my self.The little pony pinto I think Did'nt get a fair shake in it's day and am glad to see people like me out there still have a love for the little sleeper that could..! LOL

Offline ToniJ1960

  • Pinto Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • FeedBack: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Fifth year Anniversary Windows User
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2014, 12:32:29 AM »
 Thank you Cheter the snow and ice is finally disappearing so I think Im going to try to get it going soon now. I had this car for over 27 years its my old friend.

 I did notice a spot on the ground under the tank area that has that shadow look to it as if maybe some gas leaked and evaporate off the ground, so Im still planning to replace the rear gas hose. I guess then I`ll know if gas is coming out from the tank properly and go from there. Next would be replacing the rubber fuel hose in the front then the pump.

Offline dick1172762

  • Vintage Pinto Racer
  • PCCA Management Board
  • Pinto Sr. Master
  • ******
  • Posts: 2623
  • FeedBack: +362/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a llama!

  • Total Badges: 7
    Badges: (View All)
    Topic Starter Signature Poll Voter Windows User 1000 Posts Tenth year Anniversary Fifth year Anniversary
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2014, 09:57:05 AM »
Pinto gas tanks will rust from the inside out. At first there will be a pin hole with stain around the pin hole. Remove the tank, empty it, turn it up side down, get a large soldering iron and solder over the pin hole after you clean the surface. NO DANGER of fire as the soldering iron will not set off a fire even when dip'd in gasoline. The coating on the outside of the tank makes the solder flow very good. I have done this on several tanks, and it always stops the leak.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Offline ToniJ1960

  • Pinto Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • FeedBack: +13/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Another Pinto Driver

  • Total Badges: 5
    Badges: (View All)
    Tenth year Anniversary Topic Starter Poll Voter Fifth year Anniversary Windows User
Re: electric fuel pump safety
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2014, 03:04:49 PM »
 I had a 79 that had a little leak in the tank. I found the  spot and put some jb weld on it and it was fine for several years. I know some people  say fuel will soften it,but I suppose at least on that one so little contact was made with fuel it was fine for a while.

 Its not as cold as it was but it might get a little bit warmer in the next few days I should get under it and look it over. Im more suspicious of a leaking hose as after the 27 years I owned it, I dont think I ever changed the back hoses. And its more likely to be the cause of a no start I would think. But either way it surely needs to be replaced by now and taking it off will let me know if gas is flowing out. That should tell me if the sock might be a problem. I think since the hose is old and being replaced anyway I can clamp it with vice grips so I dont lose a lot of gas on the ground or on me.