PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: jburt on May 08, 2014, 07:33:29 PM
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My first question of what will probably be many as I familiarize myself with my 74 Pinto Squire Wagon.
2.3L - C-3 Trans.
What is the purpose and how critical is the D/L vibration damper on the back of the trans hsng. The housing is broken through the bolt holes so I can't just bolt another damper on. I could probably make something up if it is that critical. But, do the drive lines vibrate that bad? Or is it harmonics from the engine/trans?
I'm looking forward to playing with this thing but it is not going to be a restore. I guess more like a resto-rod.
Thanks people, I've already learned a lot just cruising through the forum.
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I don't use one on either of mine..... and being a 74 unless someone changed the tranny it is a c4..... only auto available that year..
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Thanks for the info.
C-4... that's what I get for continuing to read after my eyes start crossing. When I got the car up in the air, the rear trans seal was flopping around on the d/l yoke. After seeing the vibration damper in the parts list, I started wondering...
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Not necessary, it is small enough a weight to not make much difference anyway. Probably only notice it missing on a brand new 'tight' car, one of those detail things Detroit did that can be easily defeated like so many other things. My Mustang 2.3 didn't have one but the Pinto did, Mustang trans now in Pinto and can't tell any difference. Both C3.
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I don't use one on either of mine..... and being a 74 unless someone changed the tranny it is a c4..... only auto available that year..
Sorry, but 74 is the first year for the C-3, 73 still had the C-4.. ;)
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I've removed that vibration damper on all of my Pintos that I have lowered, and I have never seen any difference. Don't worry, just enjoy.
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Mine are missing & I never even realized it until I ended up with a car that has one. I'm not putting any back on mine.
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Thanks for the responses. I've bought a CD of the 73/79 complete parts numbers, break downs, and illustrations. (eBay) I went back and checked the C3 - C4 exploded illustrations to compare and my case is a C3. Off to climb under the wagon and finish putting it back together. Thanks again for the info.
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Sorry, but 74 is the first year for the C-3, 73 still had the C-4.. ;)
74 was an odd transmission year. 2.3 was introduced with the C3, 2.0's only came with a C4. So it could be either or. Depends on the motor. ;)
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74 was an odd transmission year. 2.3 was introduced with the C3, 2.0's only came with a C4. So it could be either or. Depends on the motor. ;)
Right, but I thought the 2.0 was dropped in 74 for the 2.3 and he's got a 2.3???..
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It is definitely a 2.3L / C3. I got the pan back on the Trans and reinstalled the rear seal. Filled it with fluid and took it for a test drive. The trans sounds and feels okay. Apparently all the fluid had puked out when the rear seal came loose after the previous owner had changed the trans fluid and filter. He said it made a real racket, vibrations, and didn't want to go any where. He threw up his hands and decided to divest himself of his nightmare after he had done a complete tuneup, new vacuum lines, and some front suspension work.
Still a lot of work to do to the little beast but I'll take it one bite at a time.
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I had understood that C4 was a HD option in '74, don't remember where I got it though. I'd bet the C3 is worth maybe some mpg with less weight flinging around in there.
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ill tell you what.... go to any parts store you want and pull up a 1974 pinto with auto trans and if you find any listing anything other than a c4 ill donate any 20 bucks to the site.....74 is c4 only.....
how many pan bolts are on the tranny pan....should be 11
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Right, but I thought the 2.0 was dropped in 74 for the 2.3 and he's got a 2.3???..
They dropped the 1.6 in the 74 model year for the 2.3, it was the last year the 2.0 was offered.
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Funny, the heavier '74 M II came with C3, I had one, the trans now is in the Pinto.
Parts store catalogs or computers really mean nothing, I found one year errors by the hundreds, the later electronic ones are no better. When someone insisted on something like this commonly a quick look at the year before or after their known year would produce the part but sometimes it got deeper than that. Some parts lines are out to lunch when it comes to correct #s. Even more amazing is all the crossovers a part can have yet they don't list them. Seems like the manufacturer would at least research all vehicles his part fits to get maximum sales.
Midyear changes are the worst, many not listed at all.
The parts books for Focus through the years produced lots of incorrect parts, nobody but nobody can keep all the motors straight there. Common for MTX parts to be listed as fitting ATX as well. Contour/Mystique and all the different incarnations of early zetecs out there? Give it up, you'll be researching for a while......... .
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I don't need to research..... its been talked and hashed out before you newer guys were on here..... the reason it was talked about so much is the 2.3 turbo guys look specifically for the c4 bell from this year so we don't have to get step dowels for the bell.... its a direct bolt on without modification.. ..the earlier c4 bells require step dowels to bolt up right...you guys can continue to deny fact ....im just tryin to get you straight....
and by the way.... your m2 may have had a c3 in it but it did not come from the factory with it.... here is a spec sheet on the 74 mustang 2....
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1974/856055/ford_mustang_ii_3-door_22__2_3l_cruise-o-matic.html
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Well, don't know about the Mustang but my Pinto is a 74 all original unmolested and it has a C-3, code on the plate says C-3 and I replaced the pan gasket and it has 13 bolts, but I guess I don't have a C-3.. ::)
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whats the build date..
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03/74
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you wouldn't be willing to post a pic of the door tag would you?? I haven't run across this before and ive been over tons of pintos....
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you wouldn't be willing to post a pic of the door tag would you?? I haven't run across this before and ive been over tons of pintos....
Here ya go.... Oh btw, when I bought the pan gasket the guy got the part number out of a catalog, said 74 with C-3....
O'Reilly's offer a pan gasket for the C-3 and C-4 for 74.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Transmission+Parts/C0073/C0338.oap?year=1974&make=Ford&model=Pinto&vi=1135156&cat=AT+Oil+Pan+Gasket (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Transmission+Parts/C0073/C0338.oap?year=1974&make=Ford&model=Pinto&vi=1135156&cat=AT+Oil+Pan+Gasket)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C3_transmission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C3_transmission)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/GoFastRacer/74%20Pinto%20Wagon/DoorTag.jpg)
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you wouldn't be willing to post a pic of the door tag would you?? I haven't run across this before and ive been over tons of pintos....
I'm more a Chevy and older Ford guy but I've learned there is always something new to discover.
A birth date of March 74 would be pretty far into the model year to be a holdover.
Here's my door tag:
(http://jburtphotos.com/images/Pinto-tag.jpg)
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Another one with a C-3...
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donation made.....
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Thanks for helping to keep the flame alive! :)
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My guess is the late build 74 cars got the C-3 after the last C-4's were installed since Ford was making the C-3 the automatic of choice for the 75 run.
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So, Ford has a set of 2.0 to 2.3 stepped dowels that they're not telling about?
2.0=C4
2.3=C3
In 74. Cut and dried.
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So, Ford has a set of 2.0 to 2.3 stepped dowels that they're not telling about?
2.0=C4
2.3=C3
In 74. Cut and dried.
The 2.0 C4 bell wont bolt to the top 2 holes on later 2.3's so the 74 C4 bell is needed because it has the upper mounting holes. The stepped dowels are because the block holes for the dowels are a different size than later versions so you need a dowel with both sizes on it. One end to the block & the other to fit the bell.
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None of this is surprising, nobody but nobody simply stops using one part and goes to the other at year end and Ford is the worst about dilly-dallying around with leftover truckloads of parts. I used to love the mid-year main wiring harness changes they used to make that you could not find replacement harnesses for. I have a '98 Contour that to this day I have not found a TPS sensor for, a very rare one used. Luckily I was able to mod it slightly to use another type that almost fit.
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Just a clarification to muddy up the waters. :)
The C3 was the most common auto used in the 2.3 Pinto's but a few came with the C4's. Checked RockAuto and both the C3 and C4 are listed for the 1975 to 1980 Pinto 2.3's. According to RockAuto, the 1974 Pinto 2.3 auto was the C4 only and no C3 which varies from the above posted id tag evidence, more mud. A few years ago a person on craigslist was selling a 1979 Pinto engine with an auto and the photo was of a C4 (just an evidence point).
Bellhousings use 6 holes. The 2.3 blocks up to about 1994 had two sets of upper mounting holes making a total of 8 mounting holes. Of the 2.3's two sets of upper mounting holes, the auto used the lower two while the manual used the upper two. The hollow locating dowels on the 2.0 block are smaller than the 2.3 block making the need for step dowels to use a 2.0 bellhousing on the 2.3 block without machining the 2.0 bellhousing. The 2.3 C4 bellhousing holes match the 2.3 block standard straight larger dowels, so no step dowels needed. If using a 2.0 bellhousing on a 2.3 block, the step dowels are easiest way to go. A fellow over on TuboFord.org sells custom made step dowels (I believe they are not a Ford product).
http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=014626
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According to RockAuto, the 1974 Pinto 2.3 auto was the C4 only and no C3 which varies from the above posted id tag evidence, more mud.
RockAuto shows a pan gasket for both C-3 and C-4 for 74..
Just took another look, if you look at the C-4 applications Pinto isn't on the list only the C-3 74-80..
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but the c4 was available in the later 79=80 pintos and the door tag code for c4 is a w
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74 PintoWagon you are correct on the 1974, I was just looking at flex plates on RockAuto. I just checked O'Reilly and they list both C3 and C4 flex plates for 74 thru 79 Pinto's (the 1980 listing was unclear). Maybe these part store listings are not the best resource for determining what originally came in what. Anyway people probably need to look to see what they have. In addition to the factory shuffling parts, past owners tend to use whatever is available to keep their cars running.
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Anyway people probably need to look to see what they have.
That's what I always do..
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Just a clarification to muddy up the waters. :)
The C3 was the most common auto used in the 2.3 Pinto's but a few came with the C4's. Checked RockAuto and both the C3 and C4 are listed for the 1975 to 1980 Pinto 2.3's. According to RockAuto, the 1974 Pinto 2.3 auto was the C4 only and no C3 which varies from the above posted id tag evidence, more mud. A few years ago a person on craigslist was selling a 1979 Pinto engine with an auto and the photo was of a C4 (just an evidence point).
Bellhousings use 6 holes. The 2.3 blocks up to about 1994 had two sets of upper mounting holes making a total of 8 mounting holes. Of the 2.3's two sets of upper mounting holes, the auto used the lower two while the manual used the upper two. The hollow locating dowels on the 2.0 block are smaller than the 2.3 block making the need for step dowels to use a 2.0 bellhousing on the 2.3 block without machining the 2.0 bellhousing. The 2.3 C4 bellhousing holes match the 2.3 block standard straight larger dowels, so no step dowels needed. If using a 2.0 bellhousing on a 2.3 block, the step dowels are easiest way to go. A fellow over on TuboFord.org sells custom made step dowels (I believe they are not a Ford product).
http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=014626 (http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=014626)
I've always assumed the stepped dowels were for all the early C4 bells, not just the 2.0 version. I've never done the swap to know for sure.
Is it N/A 2.3's that are double drilled for both bells? My 83, 85, 86 & 87 turbo blocks are only drilled for the later 2.3 bellhousing.
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The 2.0 engines and bellhousings (both manual and auto) use hollow locating dowels that measure about 0.5" in diameter. The 2.3 engines and bellhousings (both manual and auto) use hollow locating dowels that measure about 0.6" in diameter. So when using a 2.0 bellhousing on a 2.3 engine, a stepped hollow locating dowel can be used to allow it sit flush and aligned. As an alternative, the 2.0 bellhousing locating dowel hole could be bored out to the 2.3's larger size but the machining needs to be precise for alignment.
On the two sets of 2.3 block upper mounting holes, I suspect we are not thinking of the same thing. To rephrase, the early 2.3 blocks (70's & 80's) have 8 holes drilled and tapped for bolting down the bellhousings but only six of the holes are used. The extra 2 holes are at the top of the block, see photos. The early auto bellhousings use the lower of the 2 upper holes. The late autos (~90's) and manuals ( early and late) use the upper of the 2 upper mounting holes. This is the same for both NA and turbo blocks. The above is based on the parts that I have. I have the following early 2.3 blocks that have the two sets of upper holes (8 total holes): 79NA, 86T, 87T, 88T, and 89NA. I have the following late 2.3 blocks with just the upper of the two set of upper holes (6 total holes): 93NA, 95NA, and 98NA. Hope this did not confuse it further.
On a side note, the 2.0 bellhousings (both auto and manual) would use the lower of the two sets of upper holes on the 2.3 blocks.
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Yeah, I have several early blocks drilled for both bells. I'll have to look again but I don't remember any of my turbo blocks being drilled for the 2.0 bell.
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Thanks everyone for the information and discussion. It is more than I anticipated and valuable to me.
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Thanks everyone for the information and discussion. It is more than I anticipated and valuable to me.
As you can tell we have no idea how to stay on topic LOL
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Looking at a Ford 1980 powertrain service manual today shows both the C3 and C4 listed with Pinto/Bobcat 2.3 C4 service procedures specifically mentioned in that section. Apparently C4 still an option that late.
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As you can tell we have no idea how to stay on topic LOL
Not a problem for me. I got my orig question answered and even more info I will eventually use.
Great job... Don't stop now.
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As best I can tell, the major block changes, at least for the Ranger, occurred for the '95 model year. Smaller mains, no fuel pump provision, and the head got a different intakes and ports.
On a related off-topic note, what thread size are the bellhousing bolts? My guess is M10 or M12, but I'd like to have them in hand before I have to hang something on an engine stand.
The stepped dowels would be dead easy to make on a lathe....and I have free access to one. ;D