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Offline 78_starsky

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Coil wire question
« on: October 05, 2012, 10:38:42 PM »
after all this time (3 years) of this build, she is so close to running on her own. when it is on full start it runs (sounds sweet as hell if i may say), but as soon as the key is turned to the run position the motor dies.

running msd ignition and coil.  My thinking is that the coil is not keeping a positive hit from the run position on the ignition switch. 2.8 with auto

any other options to look at in the morning?

thanks

Offline 78_starsky

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 11:37:56 AM »
UPDATE:

this is an interesting problem,  and will write what I have learned so far.  The ignition is msd 6al with msd blaster 2 coil.  The system so far seems to be working properly. spent all day yesterday trouble shooting with no real solving the prob, but eliminated many things.

Rechecked and redid all the wiring to the coil/battery/dizzy. No shorts or mis-wiring.

If you are ever trouble shooting msd ignition NEVER take a trouble light circuit checker or volt meter to the coil's + screw and crank checking for 12 volts or power.  these coils and systems run with 0 volts in run then blast over 400 volts on the screw while cranking. I tried to test for power by doing this with a test light - BEFORE reading on website - i grounded myself and felt like i was shot with a lightning bolt!!!!!  no need to try and wire a positive from the battery direct. (like old school coils (meaning NON MSD) completely different beast here.

destroyed (melted) the light in my tester.  Was funny Angie was in the car cranking while I was holding the tester. She said she saw this flash and then me jumping around like an ape with a snake bite.

Did a check on all spark plugs with an in line lighted tester (the type were you place the tester between the plug's pointy end and the wire boot) it has a light that flickers while cranking/running. all 6 show tons of spark.

From all the reading i did last night I am thinking that I need to check for voltage from the ignition (key side) to see what it is doing. recheck the rod throw on the column ignition switch to see if maybe the whole problem is related to the alignments.

I know the car/motor is firing up and is pretty close to being in time (for not full running) she does fire up on cranking only. and still dies when the key goes back into run position.  Using a remote starter switch still gives the same problem.

last night when i closed up the shop I was amazed how much exhaust fumes I had created so from that I am fully sure she is ready to run.

cheers and any suggestions greatly needed.

thanks

Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 01:44:06 PM »
Was funny Angie was in the car cranking while I was holding the tester. She said she saw this flash and then me jumping around like an ape with a snake bite.

OH Mann.. this is priceless... This was a good laugh.. Glad you are OK, Good Stuff!
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 02:53:15 PM »
I'm thinking it's tied to your ignition swith since power shuts off in the run position.
 
Here's a funny story from my learning years.....
 
When I was about 20 I had a Dodge Demon 340 with a solid lifter cam in it. I decided to adjust my valves one day & pulled the coil wire off the distributor so it wouldn't fire up.
 
It had a Mallory Pro Master coil with about a 22" coil wire on it because I had to put the massive coil on the firewall by the heater blower motor.
 
I didn't realize I had flipped the coil wire over the fender & I leaned over the fender, wrench in hand & had my buddy bump the engine with the key. Now my crotch happened to be pressing against the coil wire & it discharged right into my twig & berries.
 
I hit the wall 3 feet behind me & my head dented the drywall 6 1/2 feet above the floor & I'm only 5'6" tall. 3 feet to my left was pegboard with roughly 30 assorted length pegs jutting out at various heights that would have ended me had I impacted there.
 
I absolutely respect coils when I get anywhere around them nowadays.
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Offline 78_starsky

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 04:36:32 PM »
Yeppers... RESPECT that coil.... LOL

Ya Pinto5 that is what i was thinking,  rechecked and repositioned it to fit proper. (its new) so that can't be the prob.

was just reading other forums, where on a different vehicle (76 jeep) someone had a faulty "ballast resisitor"  do pintos have one? if so where?  another person had a grounding out wire at the ignition switch (column wires)  now after reading this I feel that I have a more positive place to look.

I have pretty much ruled out anything to do with the MSD set up and the dizzy. For she fires up too nicely while running off the starter.

will keep informed/updated as this progress continues.
thanks guys.

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 04:49:11 PM »
Have you tried connecting the red wire from the MSD that goes to switched ignition direct to the battery then cranking the engine?
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 04:54:51 PM »
I'm wondering if your MSD is connected to the wire that energizes the solenoid when you crank it instead of switched power. If it runs direct to the battery at least you know where the issue is. There isn't a ballast in non- points Pinto's so that shouldn't be it.
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Offline 78_starsky

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 05:07:01 PM »
Hey Pinto5,   you know what, i will try the red wire hot to battery and see what happens.  didn't try that yet.  how do you mean "by switched power"  and one other thing that I am not sure if it means anything or not,  on the starter relay there are 2 small bolts for wires, i am only hooked up to the cranking one, nothing on the second (right side) no not talking about the main starter wire. 

Oh i think you mean will it start and run directly on a 100% hot feed?

will look into that also.

thanks  cheers

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2012, 05:12:17 PM »
Switched power is "key on & in run position"
 
That second post on the solenoid isn't used & some old solenoids dont even have it. I'm not sure why its there but if its hot when the ignition is on it may have been a pick up point for power.
 
Just make sure you can pull the red wire off the battery to shut it off if it runs LOL. maybe toss a cheap ON-OFF switch inline just in case.
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Offline 78_starsky

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2012, 06:41:12 PM »
Good news.... I GOT IT to RUN!!!!     ok i have to go out for dinner before I get SHOT.... she is huffing and puffing for me to get my butt in the truck to go for dinner....

will update later tonight.

thanks all.

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2012, 07:07:39 PM »
Cool, I'm curious where the issue was.
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Offline 78_starsky

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2012, 11:35:05 PM »
Hey Pinto5,  here is how it went down. LOL

When you said to hook the red wire direct to the battery something clicked in my head.  I did just that and yeppers... she fired and stayed running.  The whole situation then came down to having the wrong power source.  Your one little piece was the missing equation that I was missing.  I was going under the thought process that if the red wire was connected to a 100% live source the MSD would want to run/fire up.  I never made the connection that it wouldn't fire till the starter relay directed power to the line, hence keeping the line charged and running.  I was a bit mistaken for then I used the same wire (white with blue dashes) coming out the firewall and this is the same wire that triggers the toggle switch for the fuel pump line. Kinda hard to explain how I was thinking and how I had it backwards.

thanks again!!!

cheers

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2012, 11:44:18 PM »
Glad I could help. I was just firing in the dark hoping I hit something  ;D
 
Just make sure the power wire you connect to the MSD shuts off when you turn the key off or the car will keep running LOL.
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Offline 78_starsky

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2012, 11:49:02 PM »
yes it kills the Msd  and the fuel pump all in one swoop.  do you run a MSD system in your machine?

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 12:18:05 AM »
I have one for my sons '80 but I didn't install it yet. I did sort through my wiring though so I know which connections I need for it. Hopefully over the winter I should get to it.
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Offline 78_starsky

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 12:27:10 AM »
good deal.  was just curious for you hit the prob on the head.  I spent hours last night reading all the troubleshootin g section on the MSD website trying to figure this one out.  I even downloaded a 192 page PDF and looked through all of it too...  LOL

I was bound and determinded to get it running this weekend.  Funny how one simple mind fart can turn something so upside down.

the car just needs a fine tuning of the timing and needs to get the vacuum lines sorted out plus Angie needs to set up the carb.

cheers

Offline 78_starsky

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 12:30:53 AM »
Forgot to add one other thing I need to do is buy an upright cylnder style Coil.  the ones i have are the smaller style that cant be placed in sideways. (as I have it mounted)  this is a tomorrow thing to do!  So when you mount your system make sure you have the right coil.

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: Coil wire question
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2012, 10:07:05 AM »
I have a couple MSD coils to choose from when I finally get it installed so I should be set hopefully. Thanks for the heads up.
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