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Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: bad bean on September 21, 2014, 10:51:08 PM

Title: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 21, 2014, 10:51:08 PM
 :'fresh rebuild on sbf motor v-8 conversion having blow by issues pushing oil out different places.does anyone have any advise.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 21, 2014, 11:35:39 PM
Do you have a PCV system hooked up? Sometimes aftermarket valve covers will be installed without openings for crankcase ventilation.  If the rings were installed backwards they will not seal correctly.  Lastly, until the rings are broken in (assuming correct installation and a PCV system) you may get added crankcase pressure.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 22, 2014, 01:09:57 AM
Yes new pcv, drive it around getting out kinks. Saw that valve cover had pushed gasket out in one spot. What is best way to get rings to seal faster. Don't want to blow out rear seal.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 22, 2014, 08:09:56 AM
Uh, if block honed correctly for ring type then any ring seal pretty much mostly done in the first 30 minutes of engine running. A bit more will occur over time but really very little. Most happens in the first 5 minutes. If any rings installed upside down forget it, not going to happen. Same if block was worn and no hone or a simple 'glaze-breaker', sometimes it can work but if top of block worn deeply from top ring land the hone job will not touch that. Time to bore.

Put more breather on it............ .....
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 22, 2014, 10:15:37 AM
I'd run the engine with as many openings as you can get for the crankcase ventilation (filler cap off, PCV plugged at the intake, but open to the atmosphere etc.) . If, after that you have the problem I'd be concern the rings got installed backwards.  Is it possible the PCV is installed backwards? Thread ins are difficult to get wrong, but some of the slip in type are similar on each side.  I've also heard of rags etc. to keep debris out during assembly being left behind in the head drain back holes.  While not your problem I've heard of wood blocks used to prevent crank rotation during assembly being left behind. So, don't discount anything from happening.

Years ago I had an early 80's Honda Civic with the CVCC engine. By 100K miles it was getting 50 miles to a quart of oil.  Strangely it never really smoked nor leaked.  I honed the cylinders and put new rings in it (A poor man's rebuild).  That motor smoked like crazy for the first few hundred miles and I never got better than 500 miles to the quart.  I'm 99% sure the rings got installed backwards. There were no instructions with the ring set and I was dependent upon the kid at the store for directions as Al Gore had yet to invent the internet - enough said.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 22, 2014, 10:37:50 AM
I don't think ring installed wrong they are Molly rings.what are thoughts on evac system car has thrust turbo mufflers.I read that you should not run mufflers. Collectors have fittings for evac.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 22, 2014, 03:22:32 PM
Wait, is your crankcase ventilation system connected to the collector evacuation fittings?

Turbo mufflers are not the best-flowing designs out there, so it's possible that exhaust is pressurizing the crankcase.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 22, 2014, 04:30:33 PM
No not yet it has pcv and valve cover breather right now,pcv connected to carb plate.was thinking that putting a evac system on to help with blow by.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 22, 2014, 06:31:42 PM
Exhaust evap only works at higher rpm, why it must be combined with intake evap to work. A pcv system is NOT intake evap, the motor must be sealed specifically for it.

Moly rings mount correctly as far as side facing up like every other ring, rings are designed to twist upward or downward depending on the design and backward makes for a bad problem. You make all ring manufacturing marks face upward at rebuild time. A few are not marked and a problem there, most are though, as it is in makers best interest to do so or risk bad press about quality of product. Only oil ring pretty much doesn't matter but even some of them do now.

You are trying to mask an engine problem with fixes that are not going to work, you fix the basic engine there. Brand new rebuild already blowing by a lot is not going to get better. Do you have oil baffle before the pcv as OEM? If the pcv just pulling off anywhere could be a problem. Pcv entry is always baffled to the max.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: dick1172762 on September 22, 2014, 08:21:16 PM
Easy way to fix it will be sealing up the motor the best you can, then running a hose from the valve cover to the air cleaner. Use car lots have been doing this fix since Henry Ford was a pup. If you use a piece of water hose, paint it black so it doesn't show so bad. Sucking the blow by down the carb will work great for a while. After that your on your on. Look on the Vega web sites as they had lots of blow by and blow ups as one will follow the other.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 22, 2014, 10:40:09 PM
Rings had bevel on top ring and second ring had dot.Not trying to mask just looking for advice before having to tear it down. Pcv is just hose from carb to pcv no baffle. I'm running high compression about 12.1, cam is 284/544 hydraulic flat. Intake is Parker funnel web.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 22, 2014, 11:01:01 PM
You cannot run pcv straight out of engine unbaffled if it is in an oiled spot, it will blow oil right into intake. The baffle is usually at/under the pcv takeoff point wherever it may be as long as the OEM point.

Bevel on ring CAN go on the bottom side if a reverse torsional twist ring.......... .but usually those are on second ring. The dot is the thing there. Or a letter or somesuch.

Moly rings need to finish block with a fairly fine hone finish, too rough will eat the moly out almost instantly. Bore quality figures in there greatly too, it is getting so hard to find competent people to run boring bars any more. Here in north Texas they used to be coming out my ears, now I'd be terrified if I had to get it done. Last two I had done were both messed up by those who talked a whole lot more than they worked and high dollar shops with big reps too.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 22, 2014, 11:36:59 PM
Not sure about the baffle can you give me little more info. Guess I'm not that smart about baffles :-*
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 23, 2014, 01:20:32 AM
The valve cover will have a baffle (usually a piece of metal, sometimes stuffed with a steel wool like substance). The purpose is to prevent direct oil splashing of a PCV that sits in the valve cover. Sometimes they are removed for rocker arm clearance.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 23, 2014, 01:29:13 AM
Valve covers don't have that for pcv or breather. What is a way to correct it or just buy new covers.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 23, 2014, 11:12:18 AM
For all the wonders of the Internet sometimes there are things that are hard to find pictures of, and valve cover baffles seem to be one of them. Here is an article that shows baffles that have been cut down, so it will take some creative thinking to imagine what they originally looked like. http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/509142-build-your-own-valve-cover-baffle.html

To some degree this post seems to be running off track. Your issue is crankcase pressure that is weeping oil at the gaskets and seals - correct?  If your PCV system was sucking oil up directly (yes, that would increase crank case pressure) but you would also be pumping oil into the intake and fowling plugs severely.  And, I didn't read that as your problem.

As I said above run the engine with as many openings as you can. PCV hose removed, filler cap removed (sorry, it can get messy) and see if there is excessive pressure coming out. If there is then I'd still have to say it is a ring issue. I say that because what else would be pumping air???
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 23, 2014, 04:31:30 PM
That is my issue, I did pull breather and pcv couldn't tell if pumping air. Oil was hitting header so smoke was coming off them. I'm looking to run evac system instead of pcv.I read that mufflers create problem. They are thrust turbo. Will installing evac not help to stop crank pressure or reduce it as well as sealing rings against wall.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 23, 2014, 07:15:41 PM
Crankcase evacuation will not work. It has to have a sealed up engines with reversed seals, I also ran no valve stem seals at all on mine as you stick the valves in the guides when it works right. Exhaust alone won't get it there, the exhaust has too little effect and only works past about 3K rpm. There is ZERO evac below that. You balance the no exhaust flow with intake too, the intake covers low rpm and exhaust takes up when the intake vacuum drops. Only works though with crank end seals reversed, they leak like hell in normal position since they were made to seal pressure not suction like that. Under suction it's like no seal there at all. Full evac like that demands short exhaust system, almost impossible to do it with full to rear of car exhaust, the stackup of gases stops the venturi effect in pipe. It works best on open header but I drove street cars around with it and simple header mufflers only and was able to keep crankcase at around 10-15 inched Hg most of the time. Everything's gotta be perfect to do it though.

What else could be pumping air? Dead cylinder walls passing lots of gases around side of piston. Hole melted or punched in piston from detonation if ran pump gas with 12/1 compression, impossible, the motor will last five minutes like that.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 23, 2014, 07:50:08 PM
...Or broken piston rings on install. Do a compression test (or leak down test if you have that available) and report back.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 23, 2014, 08:09:37 PM
Info on motor so we all have the same thoughts.306ci, 12.1 piston,284/544cam,aluminium heads with 205/160,parker funnel web intake, Holley 650 double pumper.trans with 3500 stall, reared 5.38 gears.thrust turbo mufflers 2 ft off collector.I'm going to do compression check to see if all's well on that end.Will report findings.just didn't want to rebuild again.car only going to run to some shows and strip few times.guys I want to thank you for things I'm learning here.just looking for way out before rebuild on fresh motor.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 25, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
Checked compression psi not sure but 90 psi was what it read.that seems light for that motor unless rings are not seating.not sure that it's not leaking at the valve and could that cause the blow by.just stumped at this point.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Reeves1 on September 25, 2014, 07:53:03 PM
Way low.
Pull it & tear it down before you damage it beyond repair.
Gaskets are cheap.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 25, 2014, 08:10:39 PM
Not sure what you should be seeing given your cam, but that "seems" low. Is your 284 duration gross or @ .050?  In a gas powered engine there is a limit to cylinder pressure. As you get a cam with more duration you both increase overlap (typically - but not always) and have valve events occurring earlier.  All that tends to lower cylinder pressure hence the need to increase the compression ratio to compensate.  How much pressure you get at cranking speeds as opposed to operating speeds could also factor in.  I assume they are all at 90PSI? That kind of rules out a damaged head gasket leaking into the intake valley.  You speak of leaking seals and gaskets..., is there smoke too?

I've never built engines such as yours. Hopefully AMC49 or others with this type experience will chime in.  But, if you want my guess I'm still thinking rings.  All the air should enter and exit the manifolds, not wind up in the crank case. The only other option would seem to be a clogged exhaust system and lots of exhaust valve stem clearance.

 Do you see the actual pressure, or only the results of it. Remove the PCV hose, but make sure it is still attached to the valve cover, crankcase or wherever you have the other end of the hose attached. Hold a rubber glove around the hose and run the engine. Use care because it might rupture.  Report back what happened to the glove and how fast.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 25, 2014, 08:52:05 PM
Cam is 240/246@.50 110 lobe separation.one cylinder was at 75 psi.not sure if gauge was any good AutoZone rental.when running just pulling the pcv out of cover it has a slight pump of air just enough to feel.you made mention of head gasket.not getting oil in water, water in oil or plug Fouling with oil or water.having one heck of time with this build.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 25, 2014, 08:59:27 PM
Motor not smoking. pulling this motor is going to be frustrating.th ings not going well, waiting on heart transplant and building motor has me sick at the stomach.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 25, 2014, 09:42:53 PM
Is there any possibility that gas worked its way into the crankcase at some point and then ignited causing a spike of pressure that caused the seals and gaskets to leak?  Once I did a compression check with the plugs out and the wires dangling. The car was jacked in the front and that caused the float bowls to over run. Gas ran past the rings and accumulated in the crankcase - as well as shooting out the spark plug hole.

At some point the dangling wire lit the external fuel in a WOOF! And about a second later BANG!!! The crank case vapor went off. I had the valve covers just placed, but not bolted. Everything flew and it was all quite startling.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 25, 2014, 11:30:27 PM
Just a update on motor build.to start eagle crank and rods,trw piston, comp cam hydraulic flat tapper 284/544, comp valve springs, comp lifters, aluminum heads 205/160 ss valves, parker funnel web intake 7.5"tall Holley carb 650 double pumper.motor break in normal run time 20 minutes@2500rpms.no leaks at driveway running.only when getting it out on
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 26, 2014, 06:16:26 PM
Motor is dead, engines with less than 100 psi will never run correctly, not enough heat (from compression) generated to keep plugs running clean. The limit we used when I built engines was 100 psi, you need well over 200 if cam timing like said and 12/1 compression. Afraid you got a serious issue there.

Forget the d-mn car for a bit if facing heart surgery, or at least let what will be be, it ain't worth the extra stress I'm tellin' ya. I had double bypass and did that, you gotta give it all up to realign your head for it. Enjoy working on the car, not turn it into a millstone.

Assuming you did compression test correctly..... .....warm engine and throttle held wide open while spinning engine with ALL plugs out of it and using a decent screw-in gauge, crap push-in compression gauges cause a LOT of unnecessary trouble. Do more than one spin on each cylinder as backup, I usually do at least three.

A small possibility that you have washed cylinder walls down enough with raw fuel to kill compression, I've heard of it but don't necessarily buy the idea. My view is that if oil cut back that much the engine will scar the walls anyway to make permanent damage. I've heard other skilled guys talk of it though, that the engine can lose almost all compression to then get it back later and run fine, the part I have trouble with but you never know.......... .............
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 26, 2014, 11:08:00 PM
Just realized that motor has to be at 180 or above correct not just run for a few moments maybe the person doing test is problem.c guess that was my problem.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 27, 2014, 10:50:46 AM
It very easily can be. The gauges and getting them to seal properly to get repeat numbers over and over can be problematic, why you always pull multiple tests. Numbers varying are an indicator of doing something wrong. Done right the numbers will fall in line pretty much. You crank until gauge quits moving on every cylinder, not a certain number of spins on each. Lower reading cylinders take more spinning but the numbers will still not come up, telling you something wrong. You repeat to verify it. I even go so far as to tear down the setup, i.e., unscrew the gauge and then screw it back in again, the sealing o-ring sometimes does not seal, a repeat can show you that as well. I keep extra o-rings on hand, they tear up easy doing that.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 27, 2014, 12:23:55 PM
For sure I would use a screw in gauge. They typically have a hose. I position the hose in a way I can see the gauge when cranking. Depending on the engine it takes 3-6 revolutions to get a full compression reading. Watch the gauge and see when it stops rising. It won't go higher.  Get the right gauge (if you haven't already) and do the test again.

 Assuming the rings are the issue, it would seem that the plugs would show evidence of oil fouling or contamination.  And I guess this is what is baffling.  You have very low compression, but no smoking.   You have evidence of seals and gaskets weeping, but can't detect an abundance of crank case pressure unless you "get on it."

  Did you build the engine yourself,  or did someone build it for you. If you built it, what is you background and experience? What grit did you use for the wall finish? Was a hone plate used. What was the piston to wall clearance. I'm assuming forged pistons - they require more clearance that need to be warm to work properly. What is the ring width and end gap?  This would all be helpful to to getting to the bottom of the problem.

If it is truly a blow by issue then something is wrong with: Piston to wall clearance, piston rings - upside down, or broken, wall finish that damaged the rings.

If it is simply a crankcase pressure issue then somewhere the engine is not venting the crankcase properly.  A thought comes to mind.  What are the valve clearances (or are they hydraulic)?  I've heard of improperly set valves that never seat and the potential exists that pressure (possibly) could be going up the valve stems.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 27, 2014, 04:10:55 PM
Did you try a wet compression test too? Add about a teaspoon of oil to the cylinder and if compression comes up substantially, then ring seal is a problem.

I would expect to see at least 180psi with your build, cold or not.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 27, 2014, 04:22:16 PM
Should I run motor till 180 degrees, going to pull several test checking o ring. How much psi with 284/544 110 lobe separation.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 27, 2014, 04:55:37 PM
Testing it at operating temp isn't going to tell you anything new.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 27, 2014, 05:51:20 PM
Motor work done by others, I put it together. I am not professional builder but have put many motors together. Ring gap is 18-20.I put rings at top and second are over pin 180 from each other oil ring is at 11 and 7 o'clock. Motor runs good plugs a little sutty but that could be cold plugs or only driveway running. I have only drove it around the block. It's not tagged yet to really put time on motor but won't to get bugs out first. Someone said to run and put rubber glove at pcv. Haven't done that yet. Still not sure if gauge was wrong will do test again to be sure. Just hoping to find solution without having to year it down. Not sure if I'll have time if can't find problem. Thanks guys looking for any input.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 27, 2014, 11:34:31 PM
The rings are 1/16,1/16,1/8.:-hydraulic lifters.I did not check piston to wall.something that might be my problem.would I not hear some skirt .slapping.mayb e not .
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on September 28, 2014, 07:52:41 AM
Was the cylinders honed for the particular ring type??, maybe cylinders got a little hot on break in and some rings distorted seen that a few times..
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 28, 2014, 08:52:27 AM
No certain hone done. Motor did get warm during break in 240 degrees, fan had quit for some odd reason.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on September 28, 2014, 09:39:30 AM
Different type rings require different hone machinist should have asked what rings you were using?, if water was 240 cylinder walls were hotter, a comp test should tell.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 28, 2014, 07:17:27 PM
WAS ENGINE BORED FOR OVERSIZE PISTONS??? Then MUST have been honed or totally messed up there. You CANNOT competently assemble motors and not know if hone done/not done if rings are changed, death lies there and totally unacceptable. The start of a major FU. Not trying to be an butt or insult anyone, but it needs to be said. I would be dogging the person who did the machine work there for more information. If not bored at all then you get into the nightmare of what kind of condition the cylinder walls were in to begin with, not knowing if honed just doubles that nightmare with all kinds of bad possibility. The rings (especially moly, even worse if double moly) MUST have correct break-in wall finish or they are junk as soon as started up and run five minutes. You don't get another chance after that without new rings/walls.

There will be no exact compression number since cam timing alone advance/retard can greatly affect that, all I know is true 12/1 needs well over 200 psi, I'd be expecting like 220-230+ on a well sealed motor. Even more (250+) if the motor truly setup to get the advertised compression, i.e., decked correct for the application and proper cc head/head gasket thickness, the compression can range off a full point by simply throwing in pistons that say they are this or that number, not nearly that simple. Catalog advertised compression numbers are worthless without the motor set up to spec called for there.

Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 28, 2014, 08:35:16 PM
I didn't say that compression was 12.1 I merely stated that trw piston 12.1,60cc heads 210 runners,motor bored .030, they told me I would be fine for Moly rings.no decking needed..015 piston to deck height, gaskets .041 compressed.com pression should be about 10.5-11.1.a fire notch was cut in piston for plug clearances.I don't do machine work so I'm relying on them.only thing I noticed was the cross hatching.cylin der felt smooth.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: dick1172762 on September 29, 2014, 12:38:32 PM
Also do like they teach you in A&P school. After you run the compression check, shoot some motor oil in the spark plug hole on the low cylinders and recheck the compression again. If the reading goes up its the rings. If there is no change its the valves.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 29, 2014, 02:57:14 PM
And yet asking how much psi without telling any of that.......... .(chuckling to self) Major omissions like that are why you are here now.......... Just now finding out about the overbore after I mentioned possible not being bored issues twice. Your lack of attention to detail is death playing with a specialty engine like this, the same lack (and resultant damage) would be likely to be expected on the engine itself. No insult intended again, just the facts ma'am.

Rubber glove on pcv, that one's borderline stupid. As in on the OTHER side of that border.

'I didn't say that compression was 12.1...'

Au contrere mon frere. reply #10 says...

' I'm running high compression about 12.1...'

'they told me I would be fine...'

Oh boy, if I had a buck for every time I've heard THAT one......you ALWAYS doublecheck the work. Say piston-to-wall is too tight and you seize piston to gouge aluminum then that ringset is stuck from metal flow and your blowby. Seen that plenty of times with fresh boring, the incompetence is usually worse with the louder the shop crows about how good they are.

Look here, all the flogging in the world not gonna do a thing until you real world either trip over better compression numbers or make them happen by more work. The motor is dead at those low numbers, 100 psi is the point at which cylinder is considered to be not contributing to power even if it is working. A bang up trick ignition (MSD) might fire it but no power because power comes from gas expansion, ergo, COMPRESSION.

In reference to OP issue you must baffle pre-pcv and I'd look at adding more breather as well.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on September 29, 2014, 03:26:31 PM
".........ru bber glove on pcv, that one's borderline stupid."

I'll take the hit for that one. He had stated that it didn't seem like there was a lot of air coming in /out of the oil filler cap. There seemed to be doubt in his mind that he was able to detect it  I told him to put a rubber glove over the PCV hose as a way of telling (visually) just how fast there the crank case pressure was building - if at all. It wasn't meant to be any kind of a definitive test, just a way of observing that which he was struggling to perceive.

I had tried it once when my Chevy 283 powered Studebaker was showing 150 PSI on the gauge, the valves had both new O-Ring and umbrella seals, the valve stems didn't feel "too loose" and yet it was smoking quite a bit.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 29, 2014, 03:33:16 PM
My bad as well, I get rambunctious over this stuff and have a tendency to say things I shouldn't thus creating problems. I have no desire to actually rip or insult but I sure seem to go there enough. My apologies to all. It just seems that people should think a little more and that certainly includes me. Chalk it up to my lack of patience as I age, not my strong point. Stupid old man we'll say.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 29, 2014, 10:56:54 PM
Sorry that I didn't give full description.So me people forget the reason people are on this post is to get answers.I'm just looking for advice. Not wanting to year a fresh motor apart. If I'm over looking something.Got another gauge doing test tomorrow. If leaving out anything you need to know to help please ask.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 29, 2014, 11:46:14 PM
I did state that it was high compression my bad.my mind is rambling so not getting things always correct.like I stated moments ago.looking for advice not ridicule.I want to thank all again for input.hope I get good compression reading so I give good news before I tear it down.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 30, 2014, 03:55:24 PM
Did another check on compression. This time the cylinders were 125 except the number 6 hole was 110 put a drop off oil it then went to 125. Not sure if overlapping of valves or rings making low or is that OK cylinder pressure. Can or will rings seat after running for some time. I know that someone said that it could be the best they will show after few minutes. Now I have  to figure out about leaks.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on September 30, 2014, 04:28:23 PM
I get 170-180 psi on 9/1 engines all day long.......... .............. .............t he rings will seal to show that in five minutes, the last bit takes a bit longer say hour. Drag race motors go to the strip and max power expecting max compression after the 20 minute cam break-in.......................I certainly did it enough.

There is no night vs. day point at which the cylinder is dead but 10 psi higher it's not, the 120ish mentioned is still pretty much dead for an engine like that.

Could be crap gauge, the cheaper ones can be pretty ratty, I learned early on to get a good one and I'm cheap, cheap. It don't work there.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: dick1172762 on September 30, 2014, 05:54:02 PM
Well sooner or later you've got to live with it or pull it out and fix it right. In the old days with chrome rings, we would put bondamy in to the cylinders to seat the rings. Those day are over thank God. Guess you can do like the Brits over across the pond, and drive it till it breaks, and then you know what was wrong with it. Or you could do like we did on dragsters back in the 60's and wrap rags around the breathers to catch the oil. That trick was also good to play mind games with the car in the other lane. That and adding a quart of oil as you staged the dragster. But none of this is going to help you one bit. Pull it out and give us a break please.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 30, 2014, 06:22:53 PM
Last I checked didn't ask anyone in particular to put there two cents in. If you don't want to answer stop reading. I just needed help not smart @$$. Must be wrong site to seek help.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Reeves1 on September 30, 2014, 06:37:41 PM
125 lbs too low for 12:1 comp.

My B2 engine (that was returned ready to blow up - long story) had 10.35:1 pistons & had 170 lbs.

Try another gage. Some oil in each cyl.

As I mentioned, gaskets are cheap. If I were you I'd pull it & do a detailed inspection (after trying another gage).
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 30, 2014, 08:16:54 PM
Thanks thats all I'm asking. They are rental gauges not a good gauge. But that's all I have for now. Pistons are rated 12.1.I think I'm at 10.5-11 according to sites when I enter specs. How much do you know about over lapping and could that cause low psi.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on September 30, 2014, 10:16:36 PM
Should do a leak down on it..
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on September 30, 2014, 10:38:52 PM
Borrowing one from friend he said to do leak down as well.had someone else say same thing in earlier post.didn't have one til now this will let me know where problem is upper or bottom would much rather find problem on top than bottom removing head is nothing compared to doing while motor.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on September 30, 2014, 10:49:23 PM
Well good luck, hope it's an easy fix.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: dick1172762 on October 01, 2014, 10:33:26 AM
Last I checked didn't ask anyone in particular to put there two cents in. If you don't want to answer stop reading. I just needed help not smart @$$. Must be wrong site to seek help.
      I don't want to stop reading this post because its like a good story, but we can't turn to the last page to see the outcome. I've learned all kinds of good stuff on here, buts its all coming from other people. Ever possible thing that could be wrong has been talked about over and over and all say to pull it out. Sorry if you don't like that idea but it will happen sooner or later.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on October 01, 2014, 10:52:31 AM
      I don't want to stop reading this post because its like a good story, but we can't turn to the last page to see the outcome. I've learned all kinds of good stuff on here, buts its all coming from other people. Ever possible thing that could be wrong has been talked about over and over and all say to pull it out. Sorry if you don't like that idea but it will happen sooner or later.

That is likely the case, but since he now has access to a leak down tester I think there is one last thing to see here. You know, kind of like the doctor sees the X-Ray, then a CAT Scan, then (and where we are at now) a MRI.

  Stranger things happen. My daily drive (Mazda Protege) was throwing P-300 codes (Multiple Random Misfire).  Couldn't figure out why.  And, it often happened when the A/C was on. I attributed it to the A/C clutch engaging, - and momentarily slowing the engine.  This went on for about 6 months. The car developed a slight tick sound at idle (only). I looked everywhere and could not find the source. Eventually the tick took on every aspect of a rod knock.  Eventually I found the problem.  A loose balancer that was spinning fore/aft on the crank shaft within the key clearance (that was increasing constantly). This was throwing off the Crank Position Sensor  The bolt was "stiff" in the treads and thus felt tight so I assumed the balancer was tight.  So, sometimes disastrous symptoms  (rod knock sound) have simple solutions (tight the balancer bolt).
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on October 01, 2014, 11:22:54 AM
You're doing the same thing all over again, asking about overlap (but no mention of how much) but only half-framing the question setup........s eems to me some of your grief is self induced by vague questions with no information to frame any possible answer that makes sense, and then answer not liked. You give incompletely, you get back incomplete.

Looking at overlap is looking at the issue backwards, the compression effect is from intake closing point not opening point, just that the two are linked mechanically since cam is not DOHC.

I built a 304 AMC using 8.5/1 pistons and heavy chamber work with biggest hydro stick (IIRC 234I-244E @ .050", .550" lift) I could find and still had 140 psi with maybe true 8/1 compression.

BBC with true adjusted 12.5/1 and huge overlap roller and 300psi.

You are not going to make up for that huge difference with overlap alone. Overlap has nothing to do with the OP blowing out of seals either. That is from leak across the rings, the engine is an air pump and will pump up the crankcase as fast as the cylinder if leaking.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on October 01, 2014, 01:32:21 PM
I'm not denying that there is blow by from rings. And that oil is getting by some seals. Other sites have stated that motors can go many miles before rings seal. I'm not saying many thousands just hundreds of miles. Since motor only has maybe 1hr run time. I know that people on this site say it should happen quickly. With test for leak down will let me know where from. Not sure but some sites say that cylinder pressure of 180 gives you over 12.1 compression.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on October 01, 2014, 01:58:14 PM
I think what it is, is that he is hopeful that the problem will be something that  doesn't require opening the engine - or is corrective with alternative devices.  Thus there is an attempt to attribute the problem to cam overlap, need of an exhaust evac-system, low quality compression gauges etc..

I can understand that. He stated he has health (heart) issues.  I'd hate to have put an engine together only to have to tear it down shortly afterwards.  On the other hand I agree that it most likely is rings and that will require opening the engine. I see the leak down test that is supposedly coming as the final answer.  If that shows that the compression gauges were accurate then I don't think there is any question.  So, I see a finality coming shortly - one way or the other.

Update - Try running the engine longer and see if the compression comes up.  Even if not to optimal at least a notable increase.  It would support the theory of the rings not yet seated. Maybe it will take more time (though unusual).  I remember once my wife took a pregnancy test and commented that she was SO pregnant that the test stick was completely colored immediately.  I then read the instructions (isn't that a role reversal) and noted that you are not suppose to read the test for 10 minutes.  By that time we were no longer expecting.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: dick1172762 on October 01, 2014, 02:14:49 PM
Moly rings will seat well before the cam is broke in. That's one reason we use them. What do the other sites say is wrong with the motor? Maybe its time to get an experience engine builder to take a look. Everyone knows a really good dirt/drag racer. Find one and pay him if necessary. It may very well be your cheapest way out. And just remember that two many cooks spoil the pot.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on October 01, 2014, 02:49:16 PM
Yes I'm looking for that cure all than having to pull motor. Yes my time is short due to needing a heart transplant. But how many of you have looked for outs. God willing I'll be here for some time but a car in pieces doesn't sell to well. If something did happened. My wife would get taken advantage by scums looking to get something for nothing. If pulling motor is so easy come get you some.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on October 01, 2014, 04:51:06 PM
Something else that might be of interest on psi.I'm at 5400 ft in altitude.a site I was just reading say 150 psi at sea level will only be 120 at 6000 ft.what are thoughts on that.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on October 02, 2014, 12:35:42 PM
The car does not care would be my thoughts there......... .yes the density difference would drop the number some. All this casting about should clearly show you are not going to get a one size fits all clear cut answer there. Any of the things mentioned are going to affect it. I get in the 160s on 7/1 two stroke engines all day long, would still be like 130 at that altitude.  Anything I've ever built with like 12/1 went way over 200 psi or something was wrong with it. There have been a bunch of those, we built plenty of bracket race engines of all types at our family shop. 200 psi sea level adjusted for 20% off at 1 mile up still is 160. I'm at about 500-550 foot here.

My view here would be play stupid, fix the breather issue and sell the car while still together and you around if truly looking to help the significant other.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on October 02, 2014, 03:23:34 PM
Did another compression test as follows:
#1@160 #2@145 #3@140 #4@155 #5@145 #6@130 #7@150 #8@145.
I completed the leak down test.as expected ring problem all cylinders were at 10-15% but number 6& 8 was at 40% you could here it pushing out valve cover.don't think ring upside down just not seating.or something else.where's overhauling at when you need them.only problem with selling now no one is buying.I have it on cl now, people want to trade don't need trades.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: Wittsend on October 02, 2014, 05:12:56 PM
Well, it has been a tough journey. From building this car for car shows and drags, to having the crankcase pressure issues, to finding out you need a heart transplant, to finding the rings are bad, to attempting to sell the car at an obvious lose.  That is a lot to deal with in a few short weeks!

 Everything happens for a reason. So, all I can offer is to try and see the ultimate good that can come out of this. And, hopefully there are brighter days ahead after the important things are completed.

BTW, post the CL link here (I couldn't find it) and perhaps those here can direct a buyer to you. If you going to sell a Pinto, then Pinto owners are probably the most likely source of finding you a buyer.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on October 02, 2014, 06:57:30 PM
Littleton Colorado craigslist.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: amc49 on October 02, 2014, 09:24:47 PM
Luck buddy, sorry to seem to bring you down and certainly not intentional, just better to hear it like it is rather than smoke.

If no one ever clearanced valve guides/springs/retainers for lift could easily be upstairs as in cracked guide, or maybe a serious seat leak. If valve to piston not correct maybe bent valve. You got big enough cam there all of that should have been checked 100%.
Title: Re: blow by
Post by: bad bean on October 02, 2014, 09:42:00 PM
All that was checked.valve guides cut, spring heights all within.010+ or-, no coil binding.pvt checked.I knew it was rings .til today's leak down i was looking upper end.now I have another question what should my timing be set at with accel dual points distributor mechanical advance no vacuum.looking for idle timing and max timing at what rpms.cam as stated 284/544.just want it to sound it's best while I'm trying to sell it