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Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: Jdm071755 on November 02, 2017, 04:35:06 PM

Title: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 02, 2017, 04:35:06 PM
Replaced calipers and pads I tried bleed brakes but I have a hard pedal this car is fighting me all the way


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 02, 2017, 04:50:56 PM
Replaced calipers and pads I tried bleed brakes but I have a hard pedal this car is fighting me all the way


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Oh I also replace the flexible brake line


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: robertwwithee on November 02, 2017, 05:28:56 PM
Take bleeder all the way out and check its not filled with contamination.  Small drill bit from top and side hole to clear.

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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 02, 2017, 05:30:21 PM
Take bleeder all the way out and check its not filled with contamination.  Small drill bit from top and side hole to clear.

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I'll give it a try
Thanks


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 02, 2017, 05:40:38 PM
I'll give it a try
Thanks


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I took the bleeder all the way out the pushed on the pedal still won't go down


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Pintosopher on November 02, 2017, 07:41:13 PM
If the rotor won't move freely with the pedal released, the Proportioning valve may be stuck and won't allow the fluid to move to the calipers and allow the master cylinder to directly move the caliper pistons. This is a problem as the valve is no longer available . My 72 just recently pulled this trick, and I fear the whole system is going to need the parts replaced.
 If anyone has a source let us know..
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 02, 2017, 08:05:16 PM
If the rotor won't move freely with the pedal released, the Proportioning valve may be stuck and won't allow the fluid to move to the calipers and allow the master cylinder to directly move the caliper pistons. This is a problem as the valve is no longer available . My 72 just recently pulled this trick, and I fear the whole system is going to need the parts replaced.
 If anyone has a source let us know..
Doesn't sound promising


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: robertwwithee on November 02, 2017, 09:33:39 PM
I got a 79 prop valve that may work for ya.  I dont get home until nov 12 though


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 03, 2017, 06:14:44 AM
If the rotor won't move freely with the pedal released, the Proportioning valve may be stuck and won't allow the fluid to move to the calipers and allow the master cylinder to directly move the caliper pistons. This is a problem as the valve is no longer available . My 72 just recently pulled this trick, and I fear the whole system is going to need the parts replaced.
 If anyone has a source let us know..
My rotors spin freely. When I did the back brakes I was able to bleed the rear brakes. So not sure what to try next


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Pintosopher on November 03, 2017, 07:01:26 AM
From the sound of it, you would need to verify that any fluid is getting through the front Steel lines to the hoses. If none is there after applying pressure, then it's a sure thing that the Proportioning valve is stuck and isn't allowing the fluid to the front steel lines. Otherwise, I would make sure those new calipers aren't defective and stuck or clogged. There are some You Tube videos on servicing a valve, not Pinto specific, but possibly some help and very informative. ( Check out the Mercury Cougar one)
 Good luck and keep us posted,

 Pintosopher
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 03, 2017, 01:40:21 PM
From the sound of it, you would need to verify that any fluid is getting through the front Steel lines to the hoses. If none is there after applying pressure, then it's a sure thing that the Proportioning valve is stuck and isn't allowing the fluid to the front steel lines. Otherwise, I would make sure those new calipers aren't defective and stuck or clogged. There are some You Tube videos on servicing a valve, not Pinto specific, but possibly some help and very informative. ( Check out the Mercury Cougar one)
 Good luck and keep us posted,

 Pintosopher
Ok what I did was disconnected the metal brake line from the flex line on the drivers side and still a hard pedal


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Pintosopher on November 03, 2017, 01:55:44 PM
That combination Proportion valve is stuck, allowing fluid to move to the rear wheel cylinders only. A sure sign would be the fluid in the master cylinder only drains from the one half that you can bleed (rear).
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 03, 2017, 03:26:58 PM
That combination Proportion valve is stuck, allowing fluid to move to the rear wheel cylinders only. A sure sign would be the fluid in the master cylinder only drains from the one half that you can bleed (rear).
Now the problem is finding a valve. I did find this

https://www.musclecarresearch.com/valve-kit-kh-D7DZ


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 03, 2017, 05:41:37 PM
Proportion valves can be taken apart and made to work again.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 03, 2017, 05:44:33 PM
Proportion valves can be taken apart and made to work again.
I found a rebuild kit. It it worth getting?

https://www.musclecarresearch.com/valve-kit-kh-D7DZ


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 04, 2017, 10:38:22 AM
Looks like a very though out kit with all the parts necessary. Go for it.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 04, 2017, 01:00:53 PM
Looks like a very though out kit with all the parts necessary. Go for it.
Trying to get brake lines off of proportional valve. Striped one so far. It seems 7/16 wrench is a little sloppy in fit. What is correct size?



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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 04, 2017, 01:35:24 PM
What you need is a brake fitting box in wrench that has a slot on one side to allow it to be slip'd over the brake line. DO NOT buy a cheap one as it will take a lot of pulling to break the fitting loose. Look on e-bay for a picture of one.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 04, 2017, 07:06:26 PM
What you need is a brake fitting box in wrench that has a slot on one side to allow it to be slip'd over the brake line. DO NOT buy a cheap one as it will take a lot of pulling to break the fitting loose. Look on e-bay for a picture of one.
I tried this tool 7/16 end and it did not work. Is this what you are talking about?


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: russosborne on November 04, 2017, 09:55:19 PM
Yes, that is the type Dick is talking about. Can't tell from the picture what brand it is. Cheap ones (in wrenches in general) have a tendency to be not quite the right size. Or the nut may have just gotten a little wore. I've never had good luck with one once it starts to round off.
Have you tried soaking the joint in something like PB blaster?
In the past I've ended up having to use vise grips, which will ruin the nut. But sometimes you don't have a choice.
Russ
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 05, 2017, 11:28:17 AM
Would not hurt to heat the fitting before trying to break it loose. MAKE sure the wrench fits tight. Metric wrench's will not work so don't use one. The wrench to use is 5/16 or 3/8 inch. You will know the right end when you try the wrench.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 06, 2017, 03:07:19 PM
I went to our hardware store and got a name brand wrench for under $10.00.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Wittsend on November 06, 2017, 05:00:17 PM
Those are called "Flair Nut Wrenches." Unfortunately if you tried a regular open end wrench first (been there, done that) the nut likely distorted and then even the flair nut type can have issues. Sometimes I have had to resort to vise grips that mangle everything. I've even had tubing that stuck to the nut so tightly that when the nut finally turned it just twisted the tube too! Try a penetrating oil (and some heat like Dick mentioned). No guarantee it will work but it is an approach of last resort.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 06, 2017, 09:17:09 PM
Those are called "Flair Nut Wrenches." Unfortunately if you tried a regular open end wrench first (been there, done that) the nut likely distorted and then even the flair nut type can have issues. Sometimes I have had to resort to vise grips that mangle everything. I've even had tubing that stuck to the nut so tightly that when the nut finally turned it just twisted the tube too! Try a penetrating oil (and some heat like Dick mentioned). No guarantee it will work but it is an approach of last resort.
Thanks everyone. I will try some hear and see what happens. I'll let you know how I make out


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Wittsend on November 06, 2017, 10:01:45 PM
The flair nut wrenches taper on the contact surface. If you can tap the wrench on the nut it make sung up and help - a little. Every little bit helps.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 07, 2017, 12:03:43 PM
I still think the way to go would be to remove the other of the brake line and slide a box end down the brake line to the stuck fitting. A box end wrench would grip the fitting much better.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 07, 2017, 01:20:44 PM
I still think the way to go would be to remove the other of the brake line and slide a box end down the brake line to the stuck fitting. A box end wrench would grip the fitting much better.
Got it out. Now I'll take it apart and see what's wrong


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 08, 2017, 10:17:57 AM
Let us know what you find inside. If I remember right, there is a threaded hole in center of the fitting. Remove what ever is screwed in the hole and replaced it with a bolt. Use this bolt to make sure the part that slides back and forth stays centered while your replacing the part. Just make the bolt finger tight. Bleed the brakes and then remove the bolt.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 21, 2017, 04:56:26 PM
Let us know what you find inside. If I remember right, there is a threaded hole in center of the fitting. Remove what ever is screwed in the hole and replaced it with a bolt. Use this bolt to make sure the part that slides back and forth stays centered while your replacing the part. Just make the bolt finger tight. Bleed the brakes and then remove the bolt.
This is what I found so far. This piston is fused to the 5/8 inch not. Soaking it in Ammonia per rebuild instructions


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 22, 2017, 10:27:31 AM
Looks like you will fix your problem very soon. Keep at it. We will all learn from it.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Reeves1 on November 23, 2017, 07:22:40 AM
Looks like you will fix your problem very soon. Keep at it. We will all learn from it.

Agree !

I have one (off the blue 72) I was thinking of re-building.
Also thought I may go with an adjustable after market.
It will have a line lock when done as well......
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 25, 2017, 01:59:57 PM
Agree !

I have one (off the blue 72) I was thinking of re-building.
Also thought I may go with an adjustable after market.
It will have a line lock when done as well......
Update. After soaking all parts in ammonia for 48 hours and rinsing with water the port shown and the one on the opposite side were clogged I took a fine paper clip and cleaned the out. Jut waiting on the rebuild kit.


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 26, 2017, 09:13:02 AM
Looks like your going in the right direction. Keep us informed of your work.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Wittsend on November 26, 2017, 04:58:12 PM
Keep us updated on the outcome. What does the kit cost and where did you source it from?
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 26, 2017, 06:43:17 PM
Keep us updated on the outcome. What does the kit cost and where did you source it from?
https://www.musclecarresearch.com/valve-kit-kh-D7DZ


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on November 27, 2017, 11:32:56 AM
Take a look at the tech to rebuild the valve.    http://www.musclecarresearch.com/valve-rebuild-weatherhead-drum (http://www.musclecarresearch.com/valve-rebuild-weatherhead-drum)    Its for a different valve but the tech would be the same.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on November 30, 2017, 09:02:52 AM
Take a look at the tech to rebuild the valve.    http://www.musclecarresearch.com/valve-rebuild-weatherhead-drum (http://www.musclecarresearch.com/valve-rebuild-weatherhead-drum)    Its for a different valve but the tech would be the same.
Cleaned all parts ran a .45 cal bite brush thru housing. Put on all seals and o-rings. Time to re assemble


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Pintosopher on November 30, 2017, 02:33:31 PM
This is a really thorough informative rebuild, Keep it up, Inspiring too!
 Pintosopher Proportioned to the limit , avoiding locked wheels and topics
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on December 01, 2017, 01:04:49 PM
Is your proportioned to the limit proportional valve have adjustable proportion or is your proportional valve non proportional?
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Pintosopher on December 01, 2017, 03:42:38 PM
Is your proportioned to the limit proportional valve have adjustable proportion or is your proportional valve non proportional?
Umm, Don't blow it all out of proportion! :o besides, I must have portion control when I eat too ;D
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on December 01, 2017, 03:49:36 PM
Is your proportioned to the limit proportional valve have adjustable proportion or is your proportional valve non proportional?
There is no adjustments at all. When you put in the brass valve you center it on the switch hole the screw in the switch


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on December 03, 2017, 10:04:47 AM
Read my post again. It was intended to be a joke for pintosopher. I knew he would answer it with another joke. Such post keep us on our toes.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: LongTimeFordMan on December 05, 2017, 05:37:27 PM
From some research and some conversations with  a local hotrodder I thi k the early cars only had the dual brake "safety valve" with the plunger that slides to redirect pressure to the opposite system, ie front or rear in the case of a catestrophic failure in one of the systems and to as well indicate the failure with the brake indicator light.

A true "propoptioning valve"  modulates the pressure to the rear wheels and usually has some sort of user adjustable screw or k ob to adjust the pressure to the rear wheels.

Most later cars and gm cars seem to have them integrated into the safety valve and have the adjuster screw.

There are aftermarket "proportioning valves" that cost between $15 and 50 that can be installed into rear brake line to adjust the pressure applied to the rear break system. there is a knob that allows for the adjustment to balance the pressure.

Do a google search for "universal adjustable proportioning valve"

As I mentioned above, I plan to do a 4 wheel brake job in january and have an aftermarket valve installed.

Ill post with the results.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on December 05, 2017, 05:53:11 PM
Take some pictures


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on December 05, 2017, 05:54:02 PM
From some research and some conversations with  a local hotrodder I thi k the early cars only had the dual brake "safety valve" with the plunger that slides to redirect pressure to the opposite system, ie front or rear in the case of a catestrophic failure in one of the systems and to as well indicate the failure with the brake indicator light.

A true "propoptioning valve"  modulates the pressure to the rear wheels and usually has some sort of user adjustable screw or k ob to adjust the pressure to the rear wheels.

Most later cars and gm cars seem to have them integrated into the safety valve and have the adjuster screw.

There are aftermarket "proportioning valves" that cost between $15 and 50 that can be installed into rear brake line to adjust the pressure applied to the rear break system. there is a knob that allows for the adjustment to balance the pressure.

Do a google search for "universal adjustable proportioning valve"

As I mentioned above, I plan to do a 4 wheel brake job in january and have an aftermarket valve installed.

Ill post with the results.
Take pictures of your setup


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on December 05, 2017, 05:59:18 PM
Ok got the rebuilt valve in. Front brakes bled with no problem. Seem I have a slight leak from the switch.  After I fix the leak I’ll move on to the rear


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on December 06, 2017, 10:21:33 AM
I think on a Ford with drum brakes on the rear the propoptional valve is under the car in the brake line to the rear brakes. Its maybe 1" in diameter and 3" long.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on December 06, 2017, 03:45:08 PM
I think on a Ford with drum brakes on the rear the propoptional valve is under the car in the brake line to the rear brakes. Its maybe 1" in diameter and 3" long.
My brake light warning switch is leaking. It never gets tight just keeps spinning. Where can I get another one?


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Reeves1 on December 06, 2017, 04:11:37 PM
I think on a Ford with drum brakes on the rear the propoptional valve is under the car in the brake line to the rear brakes. Its maybe 1" in diameter and 3" long.


(https://i.imgur.com/gcBZaNo.jpg)
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on December 07, 2017, 11:32:30 AM
Are you showing one on the frame just below the firewall? I think I remember them there.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Reeves1 on December 08, 2017, 02:03:14 PM
72s with both style brakes is in the same place.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on December 08, 2017, 03:04:29 PM
Yes it would be the same cause it has nothing to do with the front brakes. It could care less if the front brakes were drum or disc.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Jdm071755 on December 18, 2017, 02:08:40 PM
Ok guys brakes are all done. The leak from the brake warning switch was caused by a twisted oring when I reassemble the valve what I did was take it all apart  put all prongs back on. Dipped all parts in clean brake fluid and reassembled the valve. Brakes bled fine  no leaks


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Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Pintosopher on December 18, 2017, 02:55:01 PM
Thanks for the great rebuild thread, When I do my 72, I'll be reviewing this again

 Pintosopher Biased towards proportions, but insisting on Stacked intakes ;D
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on December 18, 2017, 04:59:58 PM
Is that the engine out of your Pinto on the company dyno?
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Pintosopher on December 18, 2017, 06:46:23 PM
Is that the engine out of your Pinto on the company dyno?
LOL, look closely , It's injected, and I have no company, and my Dyno was in my race bucket seat and between my ears ;D
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: dick1172762 on December 19, 2017, 01:32:21 PM
I was talking about your time at Comptech. Weren't you racing the Pinto then? And people were known to try different intakes while on the dyno.
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: Pintosopher on December 19, 2017, 01:36:08 PM
I was talking about your time at Comptech. Weren't you racing the Pinto then? And people were known to try different intakes while on the dyno.
I raced a Ford, but not while I was working there, I would have needed a Civic or S2000 or NSX to get those bennies... Too spendy to get Dyno time and I was a lowly shipping Guy :o
Title: Re: Bleeding brakes
Post by: hotrodln on December 20, 2017, 09:52:48 PM
Glad you got your brake s sorted. My factory proportioning valve was leaking so I removed it and just put a T in the line for the front brakes, then an Adjustable bias valve for the back brakes. Now I can turn down  the rear brakes so they don't lock before the fronts. The bias adjuster was by Baer Brakes.