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Offline one2.34me

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Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« on: July 11, 2016, 02:29:38 PM »
    I have some questions for the Pinto folks here that have upped the performance of their 2.3L engines. I'm using Motorcraft 10w-30 synthetic blend in my 1975 2.3. I've discovered the issue of engine damage due to legislated zinc removal from automotive motor oil. The big problem seems to be with high power, flat tappet engines. My 1975 2.3 is stock, a cleaned up intake and header. I'd like to add a cam, (with dual springs, etc.), EFI intake,  2100 carb and carb spacer.
    Is there an oil you would recommend that still contains the necessary zinc for this 2.3? Perhaps a ZDDP additive, even something like MM Oil. Would a roller cam cure the whole issue? Or, is the 2.3 an engine that won't really have issues using a low zinc motor oil?
    Thanks for any help, I appreciate it.
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Offline Pinto1600

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2016, 03:17:59 PM »
You can use the ZDDP additive. Do you have the Dollar General stores in your area? If you do, use their house brand of engine oil. It can be used in place of the Motorcraft oil. It carries enough zinc to protect your 2.3. I have a friend in the business of testing petroleum products who swears by this product, I use in my '71 and '72 with no problems. The oil even states that it should be used in motors built before 1980.   
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 05:33:04 PM »
RANGER roller cam will fix the problem for ever. What I did to my 80 Pinto. Cheap fix and stay away from duel springs on anything except an all out race car.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2016, 12:25:17 AM »
RANGER roller cam will fix the problem for ever. What I did to my 80 Pinto. Cheap fix and stay away from duel springs on anything except an all out race car.

I paid about $25 for my roller cam and rockers at a Pick Your Part sale.  Probably the ZDDP additive costs associated with four oil changes (less the cost of the oil).

Offline oldkayaker

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2016, 06:33:48 AM »
In addition to the slider cams, the distributor and auxiliary shaft gears are high pressure metal to metal wear parts.  Over on TurboFord.org there have been several threads describing failure of these 2.3 gears.  The causes offered were the use of high volume pumps, high viscosity cold oil, and the removal of the oil additive.  When a cam lobe or distributor gears fails, it puts lots of small metal particles through out engine.  The proper repair described is to disassemble and over haul the engine to remove all the metal particles.  If all the talk on that site is correct, using oil with the additive or adding it to the oil seems like cheap insurance.  An occasional inspection of the distributor gears for excessive wear (gear tooth thinning) might be warranted too.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline Reeves1

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 07:08:51 AM »
Quote
Will an additive boost the zinc level?


Keep in mind that zinc additives are corrosive above certain levels and can harm your engine. Valvoline doesn’t recommend using third-party additives to boost the zinc level. If higher zinc levels are required for your engine, we recommend using Valvoline VR-1, and always remember to consult your vehicle’s owner’s manual.

http://www.valvoline.com/auto-resources/motor-oil-faq-racing

Offline Wittsend

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 11:05:05 AM »
We have a Toxic Drop-Off program in my city. They have a room where you can freely take discarded items they feel are of value. I'd think that not too many people get too excited about old, round, cardboard oil cans sitting on the shelf. But, I do!  The SE rating fits right in to most of the cars I own. Link if the image isn't sharp enough to read http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm

I found this relatively short, easily comprehended article that does a great job of providing information on ZDDP.  It goes beyond just stating the generic "cam wear" and "lower levels" of ZDDP by describing the chemical interaction to metal and listing actual ZDDP levels in the specific API ratings. Unfortunately it does not go back beyond 1992 SH rating.  So, it is not known what the levels were before then to compare with. But compared to what I usually find when looking for this information this is a big step forward.  http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/03/zddp-when-where-what-why-how/

Here is a ZDDP level tests on modern Diesel rated oil.  http://www.motoroiltests.com/diesel-oil-testing.html#.V4Z5TRIWP9A  Again it is nice to see real numbers and not just "hear / say" comments.   http://www.motoroiltests.com/diesel-oil-testing.html#.V4Z5TRIWP9A   There are tabs on the page that allow you to see ratings for Diesel and gas engines.  There is more to read on each tab link. I'm curious what others think because he is presenting a case for NOT using ZDDP additives (Diesel cars tab). And he is stating that a higher zinc number is not NECESSARILY better.

Offline one2.34me

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2016, 01:46:00 PM »
Thanks for all the info. I decided to forgo a ZDDP additive and purchase an oil that contained the needed zinc/ phosphorus. I got Royal Purple HMX High Mileage Synthetic 10w-30. (95k on the engine, still runs great)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/RPO-11750
The main reason I went synthetic is so I don't have to be dumping out five quarts of oil and a filter every six months, with only 500 or so miles on them. So now, the engine will be protected, and I should be able to go a year between changes.

"Posted by: Wittsend
« on: Today at 12:25:17 AM »
Quote from: dick1172762 on Yesterday at 05:33:04 PM
RANGER roller cam will fix the problem for ever. What I did to my 80 Pinto. Cheap fix and stay away from duel springs on anything except an all out race car.

I paid about $25 for my roller cam and rockers at a Pick Your Part sale.  Probably the ZDDP additive costs associated with four oil changes (less the cost of the oil)."


Dick and Wittsend,
   Could you tell me what years of Ranger 2.3's I need to get the roller cam and followers from? Is it a straight across: remove the flat cam and followers, and replace them with the roller cam and followers? Do I need to pull/ buy the lifters, springs or anything else for the swap?
Thanks again for all the info and help.


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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 04:53:01 PM »
Yes, it was very straightforwar d. There is a similar cam in the 2.3 Mustangs too. That is actually where I got my cam/rockers.  As best I recall (it has been a while) I reused the original lifters which in this configuration should probably be called "hydraulic lash dampeners" given they lift nothing.   The greatest difficulty is getting the cam slid forward and over the top of the radiator cradle.  Typically you need to lift the engine, remove the head, or..., if no one cares cut the cradle with a hack saw. Generally cutting one end and bending it will do.

 Be aware that there are two Phillips screws that hold a plate at the rear cam tower. This plate fits into a groove on the rear cam journal and keeps it from walking.  The cam will not come out without removing it. It can be difficult to get a screwdriver into the short space and turn it.  I believe I used a Phillips bit (shorter the better) from a battery powered drill and vise grips at the yard. But a small 1/4" ratchet and the appropriate 6 point socket would probably work best on the bit.

  While not absolutely necessary I bought 8 zip-lock baggies and put a numbered piece of paper in each marked with a pencil. This way I kept the rockers associated with their respective lobe.  Some say it isn't necessary, but it is a small price to pay time wise for the reassurance.

I'd replace the timing belt and tensioner when doing the cam swap unless it was done very, very recently (6 months/5,000 miles).

I'm going to ask you to search which year rockers you need.  There was a change in the valve stem tip diameter and the later rockers will NOT fit the earlier valves. I just don't want to give you wrong information. Maybe someone else here knows for sure and will chime in.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2016, 11:50:57 AM »
Always replace the valve stem seals too. Do a search for the proper year as I do not remember. Its been talked about on here many times.
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Offline one2.34me

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2016, 12:18:02 PM »
Thanks Dick and Wittsend, I appreciate your knowledge and help. I'll do the research for the proper years of Ranger roller cams.
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Offline one2.34me

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2016, 07:32:49 PM »
For any body interested, I searched through "Ranger roller cams" threads. The one below seems to answer the "what years can be used" question perfectly.

Pinturbo75,   Re: 1980 pinto with ranger roller cam swap questions,   Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 09:33:41 PM...
"89 to 93 stangs and 89 to 92 rangers. you can use the cams later than 93 but need the earlier roller followers because of the stem issue. the cam would be the same early or late."

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Offline Rob3865

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 12:25:49 AM »
Royal Purple is good, but might expensive. I am cheap. I use Lucas Hot Rod oil. I get it at Summit for about 25 dollars for five quarts. It has 2400 PPM of zinc. It is available in all popular weights.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 01:26:31 PM »
For any body interested, I searched through "Ranger roller cams" threads. The one below seems to answer the "what years can be used" question perfectly.

Pinturbo75,   Re: 1980 pinto with ranger roller cam swap questions,   Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 09:33:41 PM...
"89 to 93 stangs and 89 to 92 rangers. you can use the cams later than 93 but need the earlier roller followers because of the stem issue. the cam would be the same early or late."



At least you haven't asked about the narrower tipped (later) rocker arm having a greater ratio (supposedly based on the roller placement). That is a circular argument that never seems to end. The theory is that the roller is offset thus causing a greater lift. Even trying this would require narrowing the valve tip on the older engines - or more controversial widening the rocker slot.  As best I recall it was disproven by actually testing the theory.  In my mind I see the cam actions being delayed if the roller was offset in a way (closer to the fulcrum point) that increased lift - anyway.  I tell you all this as a pre-warning in case you stumble upon the concept.

Offline one2.34me

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2016, 01:11:24 PM »
Thanks for the info Rob3865 and the heads up Wittsend,
   I hadn't yet read anything about the roller rocker arms having a different ratio than the stock flat rocker arms. I did read this week that some of the synthetic oils are so slippery that the rollers don't even roll on the lobe as designed, but actually slide.
   This is going to sound like a load of hooey, but since I went from M/C synthetic blend to full synthetic RP 10w-30, the engine sounds like it's running much freer. It's hard to describe, but the engine just sounds looser. I also noticed yesterday while driving the car that the engine idle is now faster and needs to be lowered a little.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2016, 02:31:52 PM »
Here is the article that is in dispute. http://www.route66hotrodhigh.com/2300Cams.html

You're on your own to find all the rebuttals. But, many who race the 2.3 and have played around with the two different roller rockers say it is bogus. Here is an "in house" discussion. http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?topic=26107.msg161017#msg161017


Lastly, here is a post I made when I got my Ranger Roller (if it has any interest for you). http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?topic=11809.msg76146#msg76146

Offline one2.34me

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2016, 01:39:24 PM »
Thanks Wittsend, I'm going to keep it simple and go with the earlier roller rockers that are a straight swap, like you did.
I've got a question that's liable to get me torched, but I'd really like to know. Since the roller rockers offer less friction on the cam, would it be possible to run performance cams, like these...  https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/camshaft-kits/engine-type/l4/make/ford/engine-size/2-3l-140/engine-family/ford-4-cylinder?N=4294770797+4294948658, or as Dick recommended, a Schneider cam, with the Ranger/ Mustang roller rockers?
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2016, 02:53:38 PM »
No. As far as I understand the profiles are different. One aspect that can typically be found in a roller cam is the rate of lift rise can tend to be faster because the roller can handle the load.  If I recall correctly the lift on the roller cam is actually about 0.030 smaller than the regular slider cam.  But, with a faster rise you may get he same cylinder filling as with the slider cam. In the NHRA stock classes they use to (maybe still do) run factory only specs on the cam.  But they had "cheater cams" where as the lift and duration were "factory" the speed of the lift was significantly increased.  It is probably hard on the cam and lifters but if you want to go fast (in class) you needed that.

 But it does bring up an interesting point. In a standard OHV engine (small block Chevy type) the lobes are tapered so the lifter will spin rather than slide on the cam. In the OHC engines like the 2.3 Ford Lima engine that taper would only cause the cam follower (rocker) to unnecessarily wobble side to side. Thus, I think we can assume the that that aspect is not ground into the cam.  Therefore it does beg the question of using the roller rocker on a slider cam.  My guess is that the base circle on the roller cam is rather small and a roller rocker probably doesn't even fit under the standard slider cam.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Best Oil/ Additives/ ZDDP for 2.3?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2016, 11:28:16 AM »
More fuel for the fire. On my old 2.0 (GT-3) I used several different slider cams and from time to time I also used roller rocker arms on those same slider cams. I did this when running in races of 3 hours or more. Made no difference at all on cam wear or lap times, but it did cost about 1000 RPM due to the extra weight of the roller rocker arms. The 2.0L roller rocker arms were used on German taxi's in the late 60's to early 70's and were crude compared to the newer 2.3L arms. I was also told at this time by Ford that the 2.3L roller rockers could be used on a factory 2.3L slider cam. I never tried this but I have heard of others doing this change with no problems. Anyone want to try it????
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