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Author Topic: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?  (Read 9837 times)

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Offline slimbobaggins

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Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« on: January 28, 2015, 11:51:07 AM »
Hello all,

Not sure what section this belongs in, hopefully I don't get killed for placement.

I'm looking for Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jet size help.

The short of it is, I'm trying to put this my Toyota truck, which is out of the box for that group of car guys.  You Pinto guys are the closest comparable displacement that I can find (Jeep guys run them, but their engines are a lot bigger, so their carb setups aren't close to translating).

I figure my stock OHC 2.4L would require something comparable to one of your 2.3L engines, maybe with a few small upgrades. 

I've been picking through this site and others, trying to find jet size info.  The carb I'm going to try and snag off of Craigslist has 1.08 venturis.  Jeep guys are running around 47's on their engines, so I know I need smaller, but I'm not sure what the different numbers translate to in actual flow rate, so I don't know how much smaller.

I've also read about people changing power valve size, but was using this site for parts reference:

http://www.carburetion.com/ford2v.htm

And they don't reference different power valve sizes and part numbers?

Any suggestions? Thanks!

Offline pinto_one

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2015, 12:53:07 PM »
most of the 2.3,s had 5200, or the 5210, rated about 270 CFM, the 2100 is kind of what they use on the 2.8 V6 , I do not know how much CFM you need but I do know Holley make a progressive 350 CFM two barrel , most here use stock or slide on to the fuel injection EFI,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 02:14:48 PM »
The 2100 carb is a very good carb for a 4 cylinder engine. They go from 287 to 424 cfm so you can pick one to fit your needs. Most common is the 1.08 which is 287 cfm. The number that shows the size is cast into the side of the carb. E bay is a good place to find a carb and parts. Stay away from the 2150 carbs as it requires more work. The carbs are a direct bolt on if your intake is a match for the carbs bolt pattern. If not, adapter plates are common and cheep. Good carbs and the most common carb of the mini stock racers. I would use the 1.08 in your case.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 02:38:46 PM »
Take a look at http://www.4m.net/archive/index.php/t-194341.html for more bs on the carbs. Hope this helps.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Offline slimbobaggins

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 03:30:25 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys.  I will be sure to take a look at that link.

There is an off the shelf adapter for my intake that will fit the Holley 350, that will allow me to run the 2100.

I was under the impression that the Holley 350 was non-progressive.

The stock Toyota carb is 326 cfm progressive, but the 1.08 287 cfm MC2100 should be more than enough.

Progressive is nice, but this isnt a DD, so gas mileage isnt a huge concern.  The 2100 is supposedly easy to rebuild and tune, and performs well on inclines, all of which are more important to me that the gas mileage of the non-progressive setup.

The stock carb supposedly works well, when it works... But Im not havibg much luck with it.

All the Toyota guys run Webers, but theyre really expensive, and I see a lot of complaints about them.

Offline pinto_one

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 03:45:47 PM »
the holley carb was a  2305 , part number 0-80120,  rare now I think , its been 25 years since I last used one on a pinto,     dick1172762 is good with the carbs,   to bad we could not talk you into putting a good reliable pinto engine into your Toyota truck  ::)
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline slimbobaggins

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 03:54:58 PM »
Dont worry, I hope to some day have a Pinto to play with as well.  My dad had two wagons when I was growing up.

There was a sky blue one w/ wood paneling for sale near me for $4k, something like 88k miles.  Would have liked to buy it, but bought a Focus because I really needed to just get a boring, reliable daily beater. 

Offline slimbobaggins

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 03:57:35 PM »
Knowing me though, Id ruin it by dropping a 6 or 8 in it and slapping a turbo on.

Offline amc49

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 11:00:19 PM »
Changing the power valve only changes when it opens, you change the RESTRICTIONS which affects the jetting bigtime. No way you can really pick exact jetting, you have to play with it. And the jet range used by one engine can be vastly different on another even if same size, no two engine designs pull pressure drop exactly the same. Bigger engine has more pressure drop than smaller so you would go UP on jet as compared to jeep sixes. You go up on jet when engine does not 'zoop' as hard as another, just like when carb bore increases in size.

You'll play dickens with finding the progressive Holley 350, they quit making them long ago. They still make the standard 350 that opens both barrels at same time.

If not having much luck with stock carb then you may well have trouble with a different carb, all the work already done on the OEM one. I most certainly would not be giving away CFM if the engine can run on it.


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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 08:02:52 AM »
Your not going to give away anything by using a 2100 (1.08) carb since they came on 260/289 Fords. They are plenty big for a 4 banger.
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Offline slimbobaggins

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 11:18:36 AM »
Changing the power valve only changes when it opens, you change the RESTRICTIONS which affects the jetting bigtime. No way you can really pick exact jetting, you have to play with it. And the jet range used by one engine can be vastly different on another even if same size, no two engine designs pull pressure drop exactly the same. Bigger engine has more pressure drop than smaller so you would go UP on jet as compared to jeep sixes. You go up on jet when engine does not 'zoop' as hard as another, just like when carb bore increases in size.

You'll play dickens with finding the progressive Holley 350, they quit making them long ago. They still make the standard 350 that opens both barrels at same time.

If not having much luck with stock carb then you may well have trouble with a different carb, all the work already done on the OEM one. I most certainly would not be giving away CFM if the engine can run on it.

I'm confused now by this ^.  Bare with me here, because this is (pretty much) my first carb'ed vehicle... I'm no stranger to engines, just have always messed with fuel injected ones.

I was under the (perhaps wrong) impression that the higher the Jet number, the more flow through the jet.  So bigger engines, requiring more fuel, would need larger jets, hence higher numbers.  So I though you'd be "jetting Up" for a larger displacement.  And if I take my carb off a bigger motor, I'd need less fuel, so I'd be "jetting Down" to a smaller Jet number.  Am I misunderstandi ng this terminology?

Regarding the stock carb, it was in poor (not operable) shape when I got it... I had to piece together a "working" carb between the original, and a parts carb I acquired, so failure to get it running right doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't have better luck with something else.  I've had some weird issues with this carb that consulted with a mechanic, and he suggested that it could have internal micro-cracks in the pot metal causing it to not behave once warm.  After spelling out for him what I've done in trying to fix this carb, he suggested to me that I try a different route, which has led me here.

Your not going to give away anything by using a 2100 (1.08) carb since they came on 260/289 Fords. They are plenty big for a 4 banger.

Correct.  Assuming 100% VE, my engine only needs 249 cfm at 6000 rpm's.  The 1.08 is good for 287 so it should be plenty.  Being non-progressive, I'd prefer it to be as small as possible while still functional, to improve throttle response and increase fuel economy.

Offline amc49

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 07:31:57 PM »
'Am I misunderstandi ng this terminology?'

To a certain extent yes. Bigger engines are able to produce lower pressure drops because they suk (intentional misspell to get point across) harder because of engine size. Many other things can affect that too. You can make the entire jetting range change up or down by how big the air bleed to the main jet well is for example. Bigger the air bleed the more fuel you have to add to cover it. The bigger bleed kills pull from the venturi.

Holley relies on that bigger engine pulling more fuel by virtue of size alone as part of their mantra that their carbs automatically feed differently depending on what engine they are on, i.e., you need to change no jets at all say going from a SBC 350 to a BBC 454. Of course not 100% true and the reason why they sell jets to begin with.

Smaller engines cannot use as much carb size as bigger ones and why you have to commonly jet higher with smaller engine all other things being equal. All other things are never equal though. They used the 1.08 carb on 360 inch AMC as well (another 100 cubic inches) and low 40s jetting, the engine was severely undercarbed using that, I picked up as much as 40 hp. simply going to 4 bbl. intake and a 800 Holley DP and even on an ATX car. The car dropped into the solid 14.70s from 15.70s 1/4 mi. before with the 2 bbl. Just because the carb is jetted correctly on that app does not mean it 'works', earlier AMC used 550 cfm Carters on the 390 inch motors and like 60 hp. increase on them with an 850 DP. '60s 2 bbl. motors gave away scads of power to get economy and not that much economy gained doing it. 2 bbl. and 4 bbl. carbs not rated the same way, a 350 2 bbl. carb is only 250 cfm in 4 bbl. flow. So, the numbers off even worse than it looks by simply comparing the carb 'flow numbers'.

Think about if Mopar 340 six-pack engines (TA and AAR) could truly use all of the 1300 cfm the 3X2 setup could provide. No, of course they couldn't. You can easily put either way too small or way too large a carb on a car and still have it run reasonably well. Big leeway there.

These 2.3 Fords can use up to 350 cfm with a good running dead stock engine if you dump the crap OEM intake which chokes anything larger than 300 cfm.

An extreme example. Carbs flow based on set criteria, but real world they flow whatever the engine can put on them pressure drop wise. At one time Nascar had downdropped Hemi carb sizes down to 450 cfm in an effort to equalize competition, the Hemis then produced engine horsepower numbers showing that they were actually hugely ouflowing the carb ratings, they were pulling up to 900 cfm out of that poor 450. And still ran close to 200 mph. Biggest problem there was pulling fuel out so hard it was separating from air at the solid smack at the intake plenum floor. Distribution got worse as carb got smaller, usually that works in reverse.

So, the carb really flows what the engine can pull out of it. It is a highly variable amount.

That 'microcracks in the pot metal' is really grasping at straws there. I've rejected carbs for only a very few things........ ..........soli d heavy corrosion damage to affect fuel circuitry, dead worn out throttle shaft bores to leak air bad, or possible stopped up minute metering passages in casting to where they cannot be got to to be clean and open guaranteed. Even then you usually can recover one of those by drilling into carb like when it was made, fixing the plugged passage and then sealing passage again. I pulled dead carbs back to life many many times at the garage, people don't understand them and give up choosing to give away the 'bad' ones, of course there was nothing really wrong with them at all. Just needed a little work. With ethanol use you'd be amazed at the ones I have in use that are corroded all to hell but as long as the fuel passage integrity hasn't been compromised I still use them and they run fine.

The power valve restriction supplied fuel adds to the main jet fuel at heavy load, simply shrinking the power valve fuel using that will require bigger main to make up for it. Problem being, the bigger main then feeds too much off load to load up motor at cruise. Why the main jet size must be matched to power valve fuel, to provide proper high load fuel as well as clean lower rpm mixture. Why you NEVER block off a power valve, only the unlearned do that.

You never assume 100% VE of course. But no matter as the engine can often use more cfm than what simple calculation for the cubic inch size of engine says. My question would be this. With a vacuum gauge attached at that 6000 rpm, what vacuum are you showing? If higher than 1.0 Hg. then you are losing power that could be there with a bigger carb. Bigger carbs provide air in a denser amount, it makes more power. Why we could get away with 2600 cfm in 2X4 bbl. when calculation said engine only using say 1300 cfm. When figuring carb to engine size I always look for at least 30% bigger than the number says. If you want REAL economy then go LESS than the calculation shows, 1 bbls. often do that.


Offline slimbobaggins

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 10:51:44 PM »
Wow... thanks for taking the time to type all that out.

I realize that part of the problem I've been having, understanding this stuff, is that I'm still thinking of fuel flow in terms of injectors, which of course have a static (more or less) pressure forcing out the fuel... and which doesn't make any sense for a carb.  After you pointed out the only pressure is the "lack of" and how it changes with engine size, I've got a better understanding now.

With regards to the microcracks and grasping straws, I do agree with you, but some of the behavior of the carb is inexplicable.  I did get my truck idling halfway decent tonight, so that's encouraging, and I'm not giving up on it yet, because I'd love to not spend anymore money on it.

That said, this is what I've done to my carb so far:

- Complete tear down, identify faulty components and replace w/ spare parts
- Spray off with carb cleaner and scrub all parts with brass brushes/ bore brushes/ clean holes and passages with carb wires
- Two hour soak all components in the gallon can of carb soak from parts store
- Minimum 30 minutes soak of all parts in heated ultrasonic cleaner with water/ simple green mixture
- Rinse all parts with distilled water
- Oven bake all parts to dry out
- Reassemble carb with fresh parts/ gaskets from GP Sorensen rebuild kit.

I think it's safe to say that I've gone way above the normal amount of effort trying to revive this thing.  It is possible that I could start drilling into it to clean stuff about, but I feel comfortable admitting that I'm not experienced enough and I have a small likelihood of succeeding at it.

Offline amc49

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2015, 12:35:09 PM »
Not that hard to simply follow the part teardown and adjustment that usually comes with a good carb rebuild kit. If that done and the thing still not running right then pretty obvious you have a plugup somewhere where it cannot be seen, it can be in fifty places depending on which carb and design. Some of those plugs can be like concrete and no amount of non-invasive low impact cleaning will clear them out. Ethanol laced fuel has only made that worse.

Very helpful to understand the ranges of different circuits and what they do, i.e., idle, cruising or light throttle and main system for max power, that can point you much closer to where the stopup has to be.

Don't feel out of the loop, you have indeed gone further as most ever want to. They frustrate real quick when the first real serious effort does not result in perfect running.

I emphasize using stock carb for one reason, the OEM will already be dialed in with all metering as good as any on the planet, the factory spent millions of dollars doing it. When you go for different carb you have appointed yourself the carb engineer because now YOU must sort all that out yourself and some of it is not sortable by the average guy on the street unless you already have a perfect running example by someone else who has sweated blood to get there. All that crap about 'it runs perfect' is mostly blather or self-inflating BS, I've found most have not a clue as to what a truly excellent running carb is like at all. Just being able to get on it and feeling 'all that 'power' means you have only done maybe 1/3 of the true work there, most will not sort out light load cruise whatsoever because they do not know how to do it. Ergo, the mileage is not up to par or the complaint 'it needs new plugs', the mark of that. And drilling holes in the carb to get what you need? They are unable to go there. I've done it for 30 years.

People get all these bright ideas about switching carbs from every imaginable source to put on other things, maybe 1/10 of that actually works out to be better than OEM, I used to show customer after customer that over and over again back in the days at the garage. The replacement carb is more often picked because it just happened to be available rather than by using any logic of whether it would truly work right or not.

Here's the thing and most certainly no insult intended or implied here.......... .............. ...if one cannot get a dead stock carb on its' intended engine either running 100% correct or if not, then know the most definite reason why it won't then they will be ill equipped to be jumping into metering a brand new application that never has worked there before, unless like said before, they have a crystal clear example of someone who has been there before. The reality of the thing.

And yes, I have swapped more carbs than you can shake a stick at, some worked great, others were a disaster. Lots more to it than simply picking a size that works on other engines of same size and tune, every engine has different 'gulp' characteristic s to demand worlds of difference in all those little bitty bleed holes that most do not even see as doing anything there. Nay nay good brother not so............ .............. ............

Take the average Rochester Quadrajet carb as used by GM in 500 applications. There were maybe literally that many jetting and other metering changes in every single one to tailor it to the specific engine it was used on, the aftermarket especially now that no one uses carbs anymore has knocked down those 500 carbs to at first maybe 200 and now with no sales probably 30 or so. You go and buy a supposedly 'exact' replacement carb that works on YOUR car engine now and what you get is a mishmash of parts that by far will not work as well as the original carb did. I certainly took back enough crap running carbs on warranty when at the parts store to verify that but knew it all along, why we preached at the garage, 'DON'T buy new, REBUILD it!'. Yes, cost was higher due to more work but virtually no trouble with comebacks at all there doing it. Changing the carb much more often resulted in customer complaints.

Offline amc49

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2015, 12:44:46 PM »
WHAT is the exact problem you have with the OEM carb? You mentioned different running when warm once.......... ..........

FYI, power valves don't change 'size' rather they change the vacuum rating at which they open/close like a valve. The actual metering restrictions they open to is usually right next to them in the carb body or metering block. Any actual holes or ports in valve are much bigger than the true restriction, you find that in carb stuff, the only hole that matters is the smallest one there, all others are intentionally too big to allow the small one be the metering hole.

Offline slimbobaggins

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2015, 08:58:13 PM »
Sorry for the late response, have been MIA due to work being really busy and being out of town.

Before I say what the stock carb was or wasn't doing, I should update with current status.  I still wasn't convinced the problem was 100% carb still anyways, so I pulled the carb and EGR system back off; found the EGR valve would stick sometimes and wasn't 100% sealed anyways when closed.  I blanked the EGR off with a homemade plate stuck between the valve and head, and the engine is idling pretty decent now, and seems to drive part throttle alright.  So it seems the unpredictable part throttle behavior was (hopefully) only an intermittent EGR vacuum leak.  This also explains why I kept searching for a vacuum leak I thought it had, but couldn't find it; ie, it was a "sealed" vacuum leak that I could detect with carb cleaner or ether.

So, with the part throttle more or less going alright right now, the next known issue is wide open throttle, which I know is a carb issue.  If I stop on the pedal, it bogs down really hard, and then pulls itself out of the bog.  If I cruise and just roll the throttle, it runs alright.

So, what I need to figure out is, is it going very lean, or very rich, when I stop on the pedal? Because from what I've read, both conditions will cause it to bog.  I'm not sure how to tell which it is.  I'm going to search on Car Craft's website and see if I can find some more carb tuning info.

I did not buy the Motorcraft 2100 I'd found on Craigslist, not yet anyways.  I'd really like to get this stocker running properly, if I can.

Thanks for all the help and any other suggestions you might have.  I'd have been banned from other forums by now for going so in-depth about an unrelated vehicle, but none of the "newer age" folk know anything about carbs, so I'm trying to find subject matter experts wherever I can, regardless of what forum it is.  :)

Offline amc49

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 11:13:11 PM »
EGR could very easily be a problem there, glad you went there many won't.

Rich at wide open throttle enough to bog the motor should be showing some black smoke out of pipe, if stock or close jets and otherwise parts then commonly lean rather than rich. Fuel injection can easily run rich from too much fuel pressure but carb not so easy. High fuel level in bowl could but would affect idle as well. Make sure initial timing is up to par, slow timing can kill hard rollon throttle too. Check accelerator pump for working with air cleaner off, the slightest small movement of throttle should be squirting some fuel out of the nozzle(s), more throttle=more fuel. Accelerator pump provides the fuel while the carb boosters are coming on line, you get an instant hole in fuel delivery for a second with a sudden stomp on the gas, air (lighter in weight) moves faster than fuel can and you need a short time bump in fuel delivery to cover that bog hole up. Lean indicator is the bog gets worse the harder and lower in rpm you stomp on the gas.

Offline slimbobaggins

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2015, 09:39:44 AM »
Great thanks, I'll get it apart this week to check the AP.  I have the timing set 5 degrees advanced from man. spec because it smoothed the idle out a bit more.

I had a helper watch the tailpipe when I punch the throttle, and didnt see any black smoke when it bogs.

Offline jeremysdad

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2015, 12:53:39 AM »
Your not going to give away anything by using a 2100 (1.08) carb since they came on 260/289 Fords. They are plenty big for a 4 banger.

Way too big for a 4, way too small for an 8. The 2150 was perfect for the 250, no?

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2015, 09:19:20 AM »
Way too big for a 4, way too small for an 8. The 2150 was perfect for the 250, no?
     Not so! 1.08 carb is 287 CFM and almost the same size as the stock carb. Way smaller than the 350 and 500 Holley. Only difference is both barrels work together. Perfect size carb for a 2.3L.
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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2015, 09:36:45 AM »
Well, most of the Toyota guys don't run the Weber 32/36, which is progressive, they run the Weber 38, which is synchronous.  Especially if they have mods done to the motor.  The Weber 38 is 390 cfm.  So my somewhat flawed reasoning is that an appropriately sized 2100 would do better than the 38.  Plus the 38 suffers the same issues the 32/36 does... Doesnt do well on inclines or off kilter

I grabbed a 1.08 2100 of Craigslist this past weekend for $20, couldn't pass it up.  Haven't rebuilt it yet.

Still running the stock carb, with the wot problem.  Going to put my brother in law's wideband on the truck to see what it's doing when it bogs, just haven't had a chance yet.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2015, 10:19:32 AM »
Good find! Go for it!
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Re: Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2015, 03:02:35 PM »
The 1.08 should work fine, almost exact same flow as the 32/36.