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Offline krazi

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auto trans swap
« on: February 13, 2014, 12:29:38 PM »
I recently bought a 2.8 engine and transmission. I counted the bolts on the trans pan, and came up with 13. counted it 3 times and came up with 13. I have the c4 in the car right now, which has 11 bolts. what do I need to make this mystery trans fit? I thought the c3 had 14 or 15 bolts. I know I got a good engine and trans, because I drove it once. it's only gonna be a temporary transmission, and I plan on using the v6 after I put a race cam in it. do I need new push rods and valve springs? can I reuse the lifters? any info would be helpful.
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Offline amc49

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Re: auto trans swap
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 07:30:27 PM »
C3 has thirteen bolts.

Do not use used lifters on a new cam unless you want to rebuild the engine. You can use used lifters on the same cam they ran on before but mixing them with another used cam is a disaster. They wear into each other and if mixed later then they tear up whatever they run against. You can't even mix them up on same cam, they match to individual lobe, if you mix them up to be on different lobes often one tears up.

The bottom of lifter wears to match its' cam lobe, after that you cannot change them up. (You can but you'll regret it)


Offline Wittsend

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Re: auto trans swap
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 03:27:24 PM »
You didn't mention if the original engine was a 2.0/2.3 or a 2.8. If it is the 2.3 then the bellhousing for a C-4 is worth about $150.

Not to contradict AMC49 because he is absolutely correct, but I did mix/match the cam and lifters in an old 260 Falcon I had.  I just didn't know any better.  I put at least 20K miles on that engine and it still ran fine when I sold the car.  I guess I just got lucky.

  Just an FYI, the cam surface is typically ground with ever so slight an angle and the lifter bore is somewhat offset to the side.  The lifter seat is ground with a slight convex surface.  Most people think that the lifter slides on the cam.  But in reality the lobe angle and convex lifter actually cause themselves roll over each other.   You can see it here: http://books.google.com/books?id=gGtHfrXf86sC&pg=RA1-PA33&lpg=RA1-PA33&dq=lifter/lobe+relationship&source=bl&ots=gM0hbLFH-L&sig=2-0Y6-v7IbpT6qxlyFBLHXsDpVs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e30CU4f_AoPDoAT3jYGoCQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=lifter%2Flobe%20relationship&f=false

Offline amc49

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Re: auto trans swap
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 07:11:24 PM »
As he says.......... .......

It CAN be done with intelligence, it's just that most don't do that. I've done it and had engine last more than 100K. However, there are many reasons not to and disaster is waiting for you if you fit in that category.

The cam can be used if lobes are still up to height, if any is worn more than .007"-.010" you are asking for it. The high edge will be long gone by then and new lifter will not spin, rather tend to stay stay put and chew up much faster then. The lifters must still have crown on them too, they are curved on the bottom to the tune of around a 36 inch diameter radius. Much easier to get away with it with stock weak--ssed valvesprings.

Forget all that if the cam is a hi-perf one with big lobes, the high edge is gone by the first break-in of the cam and any higher spring pressures will do the cam in in as little as 30 minutes. Seen it plenty of times. I even watched some loser who 'built race engines' knock several lobes off by extreme wear simply towing manual trans car around trying to start it when he couldn't get distributor in right. Tried for 3 days to start new engine, gave up and then took it back down to find lobes missing. That was pretty wild.......... .............c am lobes lube by splash, he towed it long enough to run lobes bone dry and wear city. Why you always crank a new engine up and get it to 2500+ rpm fast so as to be flinging oil all over the place to lube the quickly wearing cam at that point. The high edge wears in pretty quick and then entire lobe begins to carry the load, by then lifter spinning is already established and it keeps on going. The wear then falls way off to begin the process of normal wear. One other reason why you change break in oil pretty quick on a new motor, to get those wear particles out of engine. And why you use break in lube on a new cam's first start up.


Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: auto trans swap
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 08:45:57 PM »
I mixed lifters once(when I didn't know any better and no internet,lol)cam only had about 2000mi on it, if I remember right the cam lasted about 50mi or so, called Crane up and told them what happened first thing they asked if the lifters got mixed up, I said yes  and he said "there's your problem", so new cam and lifters and I was back on the road, expensive lesson learned...
Art
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Offline krazi

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Re: auto trans swap
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 10:30:58 PM »
so I bought a useless trans. I heard that the length and the slip yoke are different from a c3 to a c4. and the engine in the car is a 2.8 with a used cam and stock lifters. hard to imagine I've gone 12 years with it. must be luck. the engine I bought is a virgin 2.8. the one in the car has the smaller diameter distributor, and the new (used) one has the larger more common distributor. is there a difference in performance? (longer rotor, colder spark?) how much should I expect to pay to have the c4 rebuilt? (accidentally put dexron III mercon in it instead of type f. slips a lot. been adding lucas oil trans tune and it helps, but I think I'm pushing the limits. and the 8" rear howls when I'm on the throttle. any more help with this is appreciated and encouraged ;D
yeah, I'm Krazi!

Offline amc49

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Re: auto trans swap
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 02:17:10 AM »
I never put any stopgap fluid improver in an ATX. If it slips you fix the problem is one of worn parts, or you simply adjust if a band. You can even adjust bands on newer modern PCM controlled cars if you look close enough. Even if there is 'no adjustment' on them. I've done it several times.

ATX shift qualities are closely tied to the viscosity of the fluid used and additives in it, when you start dickering with that you have pushed the hydraulics engineers aside to say that the millions of dollars that Ford puts into each and every transmission design is flawed and you are smarter than them. Not wise.

Rear end howling means it is most likely dead, no fixing there except the big fix or new rear end. You might check the fluid level in it but if low the damage most likely already done.

Colder spark?? I don't think so. the distributor was not modded to improve spark at all, rather  to control it. The spark comes from coil, the bigger size is to put more space between potential jump points since the coil makes more voltage. Just like going from 7 mm. wire to 8 mm., same idea.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: auto trans swap
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 07:28:46 AM »
Bandaid fixes will bite you sooner or later they were made to run without it, if it don't work right it needs to be fixed. Dextron and Type F don't mix either, Dextron has anti foam agents in it and also soften shifts, all those so called race fluids are just Type F fluid, I use Type F in any tranny I build, after using Dextron you'd think you had a shift kit in it, lol..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.