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Author Topic: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?  (Read 16711 times)

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Offline rramjet

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Offline powderblue76

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 12:39:50 PM »
Guess that won't fit a 2.3...?

Offline pintosopher

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 02:25:51 PM »
Guess that won't fit a 2.3...?
In a Word,. Nope! Besides a Dual  40 DCOE Weber setup makes more power, and is just as driveable with proper tuning, if the Multi carb thing is your desire.

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Offline tbucketjack

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 02:33:00 PM »
Never seen that set up before.

Offline amc49

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 07:50:28 PM »
Fours don't like the intake tract being broken into pairs like that, it looks neat but the oddball uneven intake events give tuning fits. Seen it done on motorcycles before. While it can be made to work, not a hot setup, better to share all intakes on a common plenum and more power with only one carb and minus the carb sync headaches..... .............. ...you can get away with bigger carb easier by sharing more cylinders to draw on it more of the time.

Like he says if you go to that trouble dump the right angle turn and more power going to sidedraft. All right angle turns in intakes KILL power.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 10:58:23 PM »
It does have the cool factor if that's what you're after...
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline rramjet

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2013, 07:47:27 PM »
Gotta sort out the knocking rod before I go for bling but had never seen an Eldebrock setup for the 2.0.

Offline amc49

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 09:17:45 PM »
I've seen more 'cool' looking setups than you can count that when started up sounded like pure crap.......... .....the engine will tell you lickety split.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 09:43:48 PM »
Back in the 70's and early 80's the roundy round hydro guys had 4 banger classes and the 2.o was "the" motor to have if you wanted to be out in front, seen a lot of custom setups mostly all home made deals but they sure made the power some of these guys were pushing the 3 digit numbers with with them, wasn't interested in them back then now I wished I would have paid attention to that stuff.. 
Art
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Offline Jerry merrill

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 11:01:05 PM »
I believe this was called the Pony Ram System, I remember seeing them for sale when I bought my 72 new.

Offline amc49

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 04:31:29 AM »
I frequent Honda original twincam bike sites because I had a long love affair with them, there is a company that makes the exact same setup but sidedraft for them, it runs but the best way to chop off 20% power and quick. Turns a decent running stocker into a dog. Can't tell the chopper guys anything though, they like it because fits chopped frames. Then they regale you with false tales of how much better they run. Well, yeah, if you can't tune 4 carbs I guess 2 IS easier. So much of the human experience is subject to false interpretation .............. .......

Offline Cookieboystoys

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 08:00:54 PM »
I saved the text on a vintage magazine review on these from when they were reviewed, I forget which magazine (sorry)

here it is... Both performance and economy are available with Edelbrock's new Pony Ram It is very rare when you find a piece of equipment that offers you a performance gain without sacrificing gas mileage or hurting performance in a certain rpm range. The only way you can perform this kind of magic is by increasing the overall efficiency of the engine. This is just what Edelbrock has done. Edelbrock engineers have come up with a manifold for the 2000cc Ford Pinto engine which greatly increases performance throughout the engine's working range while having no adverse effect on gas consumption. The first thing that's apparent when looking at Edelbrock's Pony Ram manifold is that it uses 2 single-barrel carburetors instead of the stock two-barrel or a single four-barrel. According to Edelbrock, it would have been easier to make a manifold that used a four-barrel carburetor, but even the smallest one (in terms of cfm rating) is too much carb for these small engines. You have to be very careful not to eliminate what little low end torque these small engines have. To physically fit a four-barrel on one of these engines requires a manifold with a larger plenum area than what the engine can most effectively use. Also, the relationship of the four throttle bores makes for erratic cylinder distribution on an in-line engine. The design of the Pony Ram started with an examination of the basic flow characteristic s of the stock cylinder head, keeping in mind the valve event (lift and duration) of the stock or street/strip-type camshaft. For stock parts the factory head and manifold are basically well-designed units, perhaps due to their German-engineered heritage. Too bad the same thing can't be said of the domestic designed engines of similar size. Quantitatively, the head does not flow a lot of air, and the stock manifold has some subtle features in it to minimize restrictions. A small change in the flow volume, either plus or minus, has a much greater effect percentagewise in these small engines than it would in a larger V-8 type engine. The stock two-barrel carb also has some unique engineering features. The butterflies do not open simultaneously as they do on most carbs of this type. Instead the Pinto unit is more like one-half of a four-barrel, with a primary and secondary throat. A staged throttle linkage allows for a progressive opening. The head, manifold and carburetor(s) must be a compatible unit to achieve a performance increase throughout the operating rpm range. Edelbrock engineers increased the flow characteristic s of the unit by designing a manifold with high air stream speeds. This high stream speed principle increases an engine's torque capabilities, especially at low and mid-range engine speeds. Visually, this was accomplished by making two pairs of fairly long runners and connecting them with a small volume plenum. In fact, many of the concepts that go into an I.R. (Individual Runner) manifold were incorporated in the design of the Pony Ram. Each pair of runners is fed by a Holly single-barrel carburetor, part number R-6467, rated at 185 cfm each. These carburetors have been specially calibrated by Holley to be used in conjunction with the Pony Ram manifold. The cost of these carburetors will be comparable to that of a single four-barrel. The manifold, as sold by Edelbrock dealers, come complete with a linkage kit and all the necessary fittings and hoses to hook up the emissions system. Initial tests have shown that the new manifold has better idle emission characteristic s than does its stock counterpart. Performance is where the Pony ram really gets it all together. Acceleration times from 0-60, 20-60, 30-60 and 40-60 showed up to a one-second improvement over the stock factory setup. On both setups the engine had been tuned to insure accurate performance data. Week-long mileage checks showed that the Pony Ram did not effect the economy of the vehicle in any measure-able way. The biggest difference is the way the car feels when driving it. You might say that the Pony Ram has made the Pinto a real quarter horse.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 08:22:46 PM »
Interesting read.
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2013, 12:08:09 AM »
And half of it is pure BS. I love Edelbrock stuff but when pressed they spread the same crap as anyone else. NO WAY are 2 accelerator pumps going to have the same gas mileage as one. And the referral to the latest 'trick' IR improvements? We all know where IR ended up on V-8s don't we???? Couldn't be done. The saying the head is well designed, LOL, the 2.0 intake port is dead as far as good power, it is WAY too flat and no shortside radius to make good power at all. All things being equal, tip in performance of bigger barrels off idle is more wasteful of fuel and a dead solid rule there, never mind the added issues when linkage gets loose to let one carb open before the other. Can you say throw away fuel? German heritage? They gave us the VW and two world wars for crying out loud. High airstream speeds when the intake events are lop sided? My side is hurting from all the laughter. You ALWAYS keep airspeeds up with more evenly based intake events, a function of physics there. The 180-540 intake events blow that out of the water.

I'll shut up now, I think I'm losing my voice (or my mind LOL).............. ...........I see Pony Rams everywhere, they're gonna take over the world......... ......

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 07:36:26 AM »
Soo, is there a good intake setup out there or do you have to make your own?, can't picture this any more complicated than a Chevy IL6????..
Art
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Offline pintosopher

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 10:36:05 AM »
And half of it is pure BS. I love Edelbrock stuff but when pressed they spread the same crap as anyone else. NO WAY are 2 accelerator pumps going to have the same gas mileage as one. And the referral to the latest 'trick' IR improvements? We all know where IR ended up on V-8s don't we???? Couldn't be done. The saying the head is well designed, LOL, the 2.0 intake port is dead as far as good power, it is WAY too flat and no shortside radius to make good power at all. All things being equal, tip in performance of bigger barrels off idle is more wasteful of fuel and a dead solid rule there, never mind the added issues when linkage gets loose to let one carb open before the other. Can you say throw away fuel? German heritage? They gave us the VW and two world wars for crying out loud. High airstream speeds when the intake events are lop sided? My side is hurting from all the laughter. You ALWAYS keep airspeeds up with more evenly based intake events, a function of physics there. The 180-540 intake events blow that out of the water.

I'll shut up now, I think I'm losing my voice (or my mind LOL).............. ...........I see Pony Rams everywhere, they're gonna take over the world......... ......
At risk of doing a belly flop in a Mud Puddle, Let's get even crazier..
 If IR is so bad, why are so many Performance setups for street cars working so well? This would include Inline 4,5,6, V6, V8 & V12 motors. As you said, the head design is the problem, not the Fuel delivery approach of IR. Most IR  multi carb setups are very drivable if properly sized for the application and usage. Let's not get caught up in a debate about Cool and Functional .  Otherwise ,we can all just go broke trying to build TBI or TWM systems to replace those nasty carbs...LOL! Back in the 90's I called TWM and told them I wanted to go IR EFI and they said ( with a chuckle) Pinto? Well, Nobody's laughing at the Ricers that cough up the dough for a Civic system now!
 Ahh ! The Luddite in me just Fumes when asked to give up my Float bowls ;D

Normally aspirated, and on Oxygen daily! Your NOS may Vary!
Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Offline amc49

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2013, 12:41:12 AM »
'Most IR  multi carb setups are very drivable if properly sized......... .....'

You called it right there. Look at the engines and more specifically the size of the INDIVIDUAL cylinders. Then go look up everything you can on the term reversion. It can be controlled on SMALL cylinder sizes but not big. It CAN to a point but with huge work to get rid of the bad reversion side effects. The Pinto manifold in question here was developed around the time IR became the hot topic in gigonda V8 motor pro stock racing, the cylinders were too big and everything tried could not overcome it, not even Edelbrock, every manifold they made with true 100% IR and no plenum sharing made less power than when adding the plenum, which becomes absolutely necessary to absorb reversion pulses from intake pulses striking the back off closed intake valves, or backflowing from long intake timings at lower rpm. Bigger the cylinder the bigger the problem and why you won't see IR even now on carbed super inch engines unless the guy is losing. Head design can't change that although it can hurt or hinder. Your V12s mentioned are smaller cylinders..... ..........the more free flowing the head is the worse the problem.

Plenums are wonderful if you know how to manipulate them. They allow cylinders to share all carb bores, that damps reversion bigtime and allows for smaller carb since all the sharing is going on. When you go to true IR the carb has to be bigger to supply single cylinder per carb and that alone makes the reversion problem worse.

IR works great on smaller bike engines. Lighter weight of bike allows a motor built for high rpm get through the crap running at lower rpm a little easier but the big thing is CV type carb to not open carb all the way even though your right hand says 'yes I want it'. 90% of hotrod carbed bikes have them. Control to make up for reversion and too big carb to make power down low. All getting down to basic physics and functionality whether you want it or not and why engines today are generally smaller. Smaller engines are more 'air active' than bigger and can hit emissions easier for that. Air is easier to manipulate in smaller amounts than in larger, when bigger holes are used you get more turbulence, pressure pulse issues become unsolvable and you just get less air trapped in engine to make power overall size for size. Why you can get 3 hp/cu.in. out of bike motor and strain to get 2 out of car.

IR works on light rods again because of weight and the systems are made for looks and not max power, the throttle bores will always be too small for really good power. Take the effective throat size and compare to swept displacement of one cylinder and then do it on any bike, super difference there. Small bikes can have more carb on them than 1200 hp race engines....... ..........all in the physics of air, its' qualities, and how to handle them. Why you can have a stock bike run to 12000 rpm and no car on earth will (well, maybe a formula car, but look again, the cylinders are bike size!) either, air handling. Why you can't get 1300 hp out of a NA 302 under any circumstances but you can get 65 hp out of a say 17000 rpm Honda six cylinder 250 cc. engine (in 1966!). Same power output there size for size.



Check out the tach and the throttle response, can you say instant?

I got to play with its' big brother, the CBX, with 6-1 header the sound is awesome and pull your face off power. 11.50s dead stock 1/4 mi. with only a header back in 1979 and hazing the tire until 3rd gear. No other bike could do that at the time. First time I ever heard one was like wetting my pants.

By the way a stock 2.0 intake is as good as practically any you will find out there to pay big money for, and according to Dave Vizard. It straps the daylights out of almost anything including some sidedraft setups. I'd stay with it. It sure worked better on my 2.3 than the POS on there, and if building there again it would go right back on any 2.3 engine I made. I'm sloppy and don't like to pay big money and already have a low dog 600 cfm #1850 Holley that I will probably gut and seal the back barrels off of to make a 350 two barrel out of. I don't care what the engine looks like, just how it runs. 350 2 bbl. does pretty well on these Pintos.

Offline L.D

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2013, 10:46:45 AM »
I had this set up on my 71 with a hooker header and ran fine I would just make sure all the parts are there slap it on get your self a uni syn and put a tune up on it and your set. I would also look for an electronic ignition re-curve the distributor.Th e best bang for the buck for me was the hooker header and 2.25 exhaust with a turbo muffler. The ignition also helped.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2013, 12:52:27 PM »
I would also look for an electronic ignition re-curve the distributor.
If you don't mind me asking, what curve worked best for you?, I have electronic ignition but the curve is crap..
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2013, 01:55:50 AM »
You generally recurve when dumping the vac advance and a gas wasting thing to do, big time. All centrifugal in then by 3000 rpm. Sooner is better but today's gas may ping on you. I used to use 36-38 total IIRC. If you recurve with vac advance still there good way to knock holes in pistons.

Seems like I used the vac but bumped the stock mark up like 5 degrees or so sooner. Been awhile. I would have been considering total amount as well.

Pretty hard to screw up a two 1 bbl. carb set up, easily done by eye with no special tools unless some idiot has changed the carb linkages to where they do not match in rate. Problem is, it will not stay set, tip in then suffers.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2013, 06:46:14 AM »
You generally recurve when dumping the vac advance and a gas wasting thing to do, big time. All centrifugal in then by 3000 rpm. Sooner is better but today's gas may ping on you. I used to use 36-38 total IIRC. If you recurve with vac advance still there good way to knock holes in pistons.

Seems like I used the vac but bumped the stock mark up like 5 degrees or so sooner. Been awhile. I would have been considering total amount as well.
I'd never dump the vacuum on the street, I was thinking 36 total with 12 initial all in by 2500 and add 15 on the vacuum using manifold vacuum instead of that ported crap just like on V8's, have a smooth idle and good mileage, but don't know if these 4 bangers like a curve like that or not???..
Art
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2013, 08:13:52 AM »
Racer Walsh once told me that the stock 2.0 intake with a 500 CFM Holly carb would make only 5 HP less than the dual Weber side draft set up. The Holly set up was what the racer had to use back in the RS class in IMSA. Still have the rule book somewhere  in my shop. The dual carb set up is just for show, nothing else.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2013, 10:44:45 AM »
I would think a 500 would be a tad big on a street stocker though?, wonder how a 2.0 intake and 390 would work on a 2.3 on the street, sure would be easy to tune.
Art
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2013, 10:53:41 AM »
Use a Holly 350 two barrel carb on the street. You'll need a Racer Walsh adapter along with a Racer Walsh power valve restricter. Works great on a 2.0L Pinto.
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2013, 11:19:04 AM »
Isn't the 390 primaries smaller than the 350 2v?, smaller primaries would give better mileage on cruise.
Art
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Offline L.D

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2013, 02:23:58 PM »
I have a few intakes on the 2.0 the pony ram, the esslinger 4 mukuni bike carbs ,the holley 390 4 barrel the latter two where on a built 2.0 with an esslinger head and a big crane cam flat tops etc etc etc. For a stock motor the header and a holley 350 should work fine .

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2013, 05:29:24 PM »
The 350 will fit on a 2.0 intake (with an adapter). The 390 will not. In this case, cheap is better. The original 390 has been out of production for 25/30 years. The new 390 carb is for small V6's and V8's. It has a power valve unlike the original which had none. Use it and block off the power valve???? Who knows. No one has tried that as far as I know. You could be the first.
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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2013, 06:01:22 PM »
WOW!!! That Honda bike rocks!!! That is a sound to die for. Play that at my funeral please. Beats Scotty on the bag pipes any day. Only saw one car hit that hard, but not that RPM. It was a sprint car out of gear, with no flywheel / clutch.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Offline amc49

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2013, 08:09:21 PM »
You ain't kidding; I love the sound of that engine, and why people like the sound of V-12 Italian cars as well. Better than the hottest sex........I remember hotdogging a 6-1 CBX along a dark empty freeway one night at around 130 mph and hoping one of the last things I forget as I get older. Came back to dad's garage next day and a guy there who was a regular customer, we did SBC Camaro engines for his street car. He owned a HD dealership in Arlington and bragging about a 1500 cc. hot rod S&S motored Harley he'd built. Needless to say we both started talking crap and I called the friend with the CBX and race on. We had a relatively lonely test strip area, a highway about 7-8 miles long and dead straight and went there. I faced off with him and it was no race but I almost lost the bike the tire was spinning so bad. If you had the balls tire never even thought about grabbing 100% until around 60 mph, then a ultra high speed wheelie. Sometimes it would spin dead straight and sometimes..... .............. well,  those are when you wet your pants......... ...........har der to use your weight and muscle to control spin when bike itself was 600 lbs. The Harley? Pulled your face off but still dead at max 5500 rpm, hell the CBX powerband started at 6000 and went to 10500+. It pissed the Harley guy off I think, he quit coming by shop shortly after that, and Pop cussed me out over it LOL. Yes, Father........ ..........


Vizard claimed the 350 and 500 carbs both work about the same on relatively stock motors, the difference of the 500 only showed with more radical mods to the engine like big cam. He claimed the 350 was easier to hit emissions on than the stock carb was. At one time Holley made a nice progressive 350 (Model #2305??) aimed straight at the four cylinder crowd, it was staged barrels just like the stock 5200 carb. Bet they are hard to find though, a sort of limited market there.

Offline amc49

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Re: Anyone know about this Edelbrock set-up?
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2013, 08:15:29 PM »
Here we go, page 49 of the Google article

http://books.google.com/books?id=ClyzQHlQbjYC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=holley+2305&source=bl&ots=SeXgcgW3h4&sig=N3tEBPPLIv51t-Zi-4M4LIllDM4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2wOxUsDIOPXJsQS9u4CgDQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=holley%202305&f=false

Book itself is a gold mine of information for anyone wanting to know in layman's terms how carbs work. Well worth buying, I have a moth-eaten older version lying around somewhere.