PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: Henrius on October 05, 2017, 10:55:14 AM
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I upped the horsepower quite a bit on my 1973 2.0 liter engine and would now like to slow the revs down in my Runabout.
The posts on modifying for the T-5 transmission have been interesting, but the stickshift would be at a different position and necessitate a new carpet- again!
Somewhere I heard that there was Merkur 5-speed transmission that would bolt right up with no mods. It might have been a T-8. Is it indeed compatible? If so, where could I look for one of these rare transmissions?
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The Merkur tranie was a T9 and is more or less a Pinto tranie with overdrive added on. I see them all the time on the Merkur web sites. Not any stronger than a Pinto 4 speed but worked ok in the heavy and more powerful Merkur's so they SHOULD be ok in a Pinto.
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The posts on modifying for the T-5 transmission have been interesting, but the stickshift would be at a different position and necessitate a new carpet- again!
The 2.3 T-5 moves the shifter forward... but not that far. A console can easily hide the forward offset. The most popular being the Mustang II console. Others have used the the Merkur console (I have) though it is a bit "plasticy" and the front of it ends abruptly. I'm sure there are other consoles out there that would work. I have the VW Rabbit console in my Datsun 510 and it is somewhat similar to the Pinto (sort of) console. The point being with a bit of creativity you can have the 2.3 T-5 and gain the looks and advantages of a console.
Something I would do is ask around about the 5 speed and the 2.0. My recollection was that in previous questions it was discouraged. The reason being there was not enough torque in the engine at the highway RPM (reduced with the overdrive) to make it reasonable. Where as you have increased HP in the 2.0 it is likely in a higher RPM than the cruising RPM range. You owe it to yourself to at least prompt the question before investing the time and money. Make sure you post your rear gear ratio and tire size in any question you may ask.
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The T9 would in my opinion be the preferred tranny upgrade for a Pinto 2.0, and indeed here in Europe it is the most common transplant.
You can read about my conversion to a T9 in my project. No transmission tunnel issues and gear lever in the right place.
However, The T9's available in the States come from 2.3 Lima Merkur's. I don't know if the bellhousing and input shaft of these T9's will be directly compatible with the 2.0. If not, then those parts will most probably have to come from Europe.
The transmission mount will have to be adapted, and probably driveshaft shortened and yoke changed. If the Merkur's had an electronic speedo, the transmission will not have a mechanical speedo drive, also something to keep in mind.
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According to a transmission sbop here in Dallas that builds racing transmissions, the mercur 5 speed is just a pinto 4 speed with an added secti9n in the rear with an additional gear.
Something you might want to look at is just moving up to 14" wheels and tires. My wagon has 14 " alloy rims and 14" tires and 3.40 rear gears. The combo probably equals about 3.20 gears, the difference a 1.1:1 overdrive would produce the stock 4 spd is a wide ratio so starting off the line is no problem and it cruises pretty well. The revs at 40 mph in 4th gear are about 1900 and at
70 mph right at 3000
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The 2.3 T-5 moves the shifter forward... but not that far. A console can easily hide the forward offset. The most popular being the Mustang II console. Others have used the the Merkur console (I have) though it is a bit "plasticy" and the front of it ends abruptly. I'm sure there are other consoles out there that would work. I have the VW Rabbit console in my Datsun 510 and it is somewhat similar to the Pinto (sort of) console. The point being with a bit of creativity you can have the 2.3 T-5 and gain the looks and advantages of a console.
Something I would do is ask around about the 5 speed and the 2.0. My recollection was that in previous questions it was discouraged. The reason being there was not enough torque in the engine at the highway RPM (reduced with the overdrive) to make it reasonable. Where as you have increased HP in the 2.0 it is likely in a higher RPM than the cruising RPM range. You owe it to yourself to at least prompt the question before investing the time and money. Make sure you post your rear gear ratio and tire size in any question you may ask.
I suppose it depends on the Ratios available in the T9. I shopped around for the Ford 4 speed that had the closer 1st to 2nd ratios for AutoX, but later went to hillclimbing and would have needed a 5 speed or the Closer 2nd 3rd 4th ratio box. Of course, a Quaife Rocket box can solve anything if you have the $$$. I had to use 20inch diameter slicks to get my final drive (3:40) to even pull the longer straight sections , and that's with 170 hp @ 6500RPM . 4th was nearly unusable everywhere.
Pintosopher, Spinning the driveshaft, not Yarns :D
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I think Pintony had a T9 in his wagon and he had the tech on here of how he did it. Should be in the search forum.
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The T9 would in my opinion be the preferred tranny upgrade for a Pinto 2.0, and indeed here in Europe it is the most common transplant.
You can read about my conversion to a T9 in my project. No transmission tunnel issues and gear lever in the right place.
However, The T9's available in the States come from 2.3 Lima Merkur's. I don't know if the bellhousing and input shaft of these T9's will be directly compatible with the 2.0. If not, then those parts will most probably have to come from Europe.
The transmission mount will have to be adapted, and probably driveshaft shortened and yoke changed. If the Merkur's had an electronic speedo, the transmission will not have a mechanical speedo drive, also something to keep in mind.
I just picked a T9 from merkur. Let u know how it goes next week. I did the T5 already. 3.4 rear, 23imch tire, 70mph/3000rpms. Netted 32mpg
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The Merkur tranie was a T9 and is more or less a Pinto tranie with overdrive added on. I see them all the time on the Merkur web sites. Not any stronger than a Pinto 4 speed but worked ok in the heavy and more powerful Merkur's so they SHOULD be ok in a Pinto.
What Merkur website are you talking about, and where in the heck do you find a Merkur T-9? I don't even remember Merkur cars in the US!
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Something I would do is ask around about the 5 speed and the 2.0. My recollection was that in previous questions it was discouraged. The reason being there was not enough torque in the engine at the highway RPM (reduced with the overdrive) to make it reasonable. Where as you have increased HP in the 2.0 it is likely in a higher RPM than the cruising RPM range. You owe it to yourself to at least prompt the question before investing the time and money. Make sure you post your rear gear ratio and tire size in any question you may ask.
Thanks for the reply. In increased the compression ratio to 9.5:1, put in larger valves, headers, and increased cam lift and duration. The car feels like it has more torque at all RPMs, but I have not dyno-tested it.
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According to a transmission sbop here in Dallas that builds racing transmissions, the mercur 5 speed is just a pinto 4 speed with an added secti9n in the rear with an additional gear.
Something you might want to look at is just moving up to 14" wheels and tires. My wagon has 14 " alloy rims and 14" tires and 3.40 rear gears. The combo probably equals about 3.20 gears, the difference a 1.1:1 overdrive would produce the stock 4 spd is a wide ratio so starting off the line is no problem and it cruises pretty well. The revs at 40 mph in 4th gear are about 1900 and at
70 mph right at 3000
Thanks. I have considered 14" rims. Problem is I am trying to keep looks original and I could not use the original hubcaps.
Plus reverse speed is so fast as it is, and converting to larger tires would make it even faster.
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What Merkur website are you talking about, and where in the heck do you find a Merkur T-9? I don't even remember Merkur cars in the US!
MERKUR CLUB OF AMERICA
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Reverse speed so fast? More info please.
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As I've stated before when I got my Pinto back in 2007 I'd find about five Turbo Coupes every month when I went to Pick Your Part 50% off sales. Then within six months it trickled down to about one per trip. Since about 2012 I think I've seen maybe one Turbo Coupe per year - if that. Initially with the Merkur I'd see maybe one or two per trip, then shortly thereafter sporadically one or two for a few years. I don't think I've seen even one in over 5+ years.
Many of the upgrade parts (T/C, Murkur etc.) that were prevalent 10 years ago are very, very hard to find now. A while back I made a post to that effect and asked, 'What are the most likely modern powertrain transplants to consider' given the limited parts that were typically used? Maybe it is time to revisit that idea.
And, yea, that reverse speed thing? The only thing I can think of is a very high cold idle with an auto trans... (no clutch to slip), but the tire size wouldn't make that much difference.
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I like you never see a Merkur any more, but the Merkur Club of America has 4769 members. I'm a member just to look for 2300 parts. Very good web site.
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I have a penchant for somewhat quirky cars and I'd think the Merkur somewhat fits that. If it wasn't for the Calif. smog laws I'd consider one for a daily driver. Here is an oddity..., for as few Merkur's as I've seen there was a time about 8 years ago I went to a self serve yard after the Knott's Car Show and there were I think six Merkur's all lined up together. Sadly they were pulling cars in that row and I had a very short time to consider anything.
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An early Capri would be another good find. The Capri club of America is a fairly large club so the cars are still out there. The Mexico Escort would be in the top of my bucket list.
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An early Capri would be another good find. The Capri club of America is a fairly large club so the cars are still out there. The Mexico Escort would be in the top of my bucket list.
I'll take one of these please, next to my Pinto version
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An early Capri would be another good find. The Capri club of America is a fairly large club so the cars are still out there. The Mexico Escort would be in the top of my bucket list.
But I thought early Capris had the same 4 speed that the 2.0 Pinto had. When did they have a 5-speed? Was it that same tranny as the Merkur T-9?
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I suppose it depends on the Ratios available in the T9. I shopped around for the Ford 4 speed that had the closer 1st to 2nd ratios for AutoX, but later went to hillclimbing and would have needed a 5 speed or the Closer 2nd 3rd 4th ratio box. Of course, a Quaife Rocket box can solve anything if you have the $$$. I had to use 20inch diameter slicks to get my final drive (3:40) to even pull the longer straight sections , and that's with 170 hp @ 6500RPM . 4th was nearly unusable everywhere.
Pintosopher, Spinning the driveshaft, not Yarns :D
The Quaife Rocket Box seems to be a FOUR speed with close gears, so I don't see how they would slow down the engine revs on the highway.
Thos Merkur T-9s are sure rare. Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay. How easy is it to swap the bell housing from my original 4 speed to the T-5? I am starting to wonder if this is a worthwhile project.
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I just picked a T9 from merkur. Let u know how it goes next week. I did the T5 already. 3.4 rear, 23imch tire, 70mph/3000rpms. Netted 32mpg
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Your car had the T5, and you are converting to a T9? Just curious, why are you doing that? Was the T-5 conversion not satisfactory?
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The Quaife Rocket Box seems to be a FOUR speed with close gears, so I don't see how they would slow down the engine revs on the highway.
Thos Merkur T-9s are sure rare. Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay. How easy is it to swap the bell housing from my original 4 speed to the T-5? I am starting to wonder if this is a worthwhile project.
The Quaife T-9 is available with a variety of Ratios 1st thru 5th Gears. It's called a Clubman box and has a all alloy gearcase and some improvements internally. But it does have a limit to HP for reliability (190) and it's over 2000 Pounds UK in price. The Rocket box is indeed a 4speed with other ratios available, but again , a expensive option.
My comments were related to Hillclimb racing and the effect of a single ratio (3:40) not being ideal for that usage. My car went down the road in 4th just fine with the 23 inch tires and that gear on regular roads and street usage. Fuel mileage was acceptable with dual DCOE 40's and the car regularly delivered 25 MPG if you kept a light foot on the highway.
If your application requires a 5th gear, then I would recommend the T-9 with its limitations
Pintosopher, It's in the Feed Mix that makes for happy horses ;D
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Perhaps the better question we should be asking is what is your budget for this 5 speed swap? The Merkur T-9 is likely a very hard find and from what I've heard not as stout as a T-5. The Quaife T-9 that Pintosopher mentioned is likely $3,000+ to your front door. A self pulled, 2.3*, T-5 (if you can find one) from a self serve wrecking yard is likely about $150. That is quite a cost difference.
*You mentioned " Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay." BE AWARE I just did an Ebay search of "T-5 Transmission" and of the first 200 hits that came up NONE were for the 2.3 Ford version of the T-5. They were either the Mustang or the Camaro. The Mustang trans has a different length input shaft and the Camaro like wise, plus in most years the Camaro had a different bolt pattern. S-10 T-5's are also different. I then did a search for "T-5 Transmission 2.3" and ONE transmission came up. I see 2.3 input shafts on Ebay in the $80-$100 range but I'm not sure that is all you need to convert the 5.0 trans. Plus for better or worse you get the 5.0 ratios.
I live in So. Cal. where cars linger longer and parts tend to be more readily available. I went to two self serve yards nearly every month for the past 20 years. I'm going to say in the past 8 years I've seen two T-5 Turbo Coupes and maybe one to none T-5 2.3 Mustangs. So, even 2.3 T-5's aren't just lying around on the ground. Think this through before committing. Tire size, rear axle ratio, type of driving, budget, mechanical skills, expectations, alterations (driveshaft, speedometer, shift lever location, clutch disc etc.) - are just a few things that come to mind.
I was fortunate that my '88 Turbo Coupe was my daily driver for 10 years. An insurance pay out (other parties fault) basically made the car free. It just so happened that my C-4, 6-3/4" rear end driveshaft fit perfectly to my T-5, 8" swapped rear end without alteration. I still had to hunt up a 86 or older bellcrank bellhousing (87-88 were hydraulic), pedals, cable, make the trans crossmember modifications, create a new cable mount (elevate over the crossmember), shorten the shifter etc.. So it is not just out with the old and bolt in the new. I'm not trying to discourage, but I do feel a responsibility to present many of the aspects of the swap.
Update: I ran the tag number and it is an 87-88 Mustang/Capri 2.3 trans. So, it is WC. 1352-162 Ford 87-88 Mustang/Cap ri 2.3 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1 0.79 3.7 7T Y(WC) http://www.mongosgarage.com/tech/t5/T5Numbers.PDF (http://www.mongosgarage.com/tech/t5/T5Numbers.PDF)
Here is the Ebay link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mustang-t5-transmission-87-88-2-3-79-93-ford-/122625095872?hash=item1c8d0678c0:g:iHMAAOSwj85Zf0 Pa&vxp=mtr
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A big thank you for the T5 list. Now we know.
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There is also the GM (Camaro?) T5 option that puts the shifter in the right place, but needs a custom crossmember/mount due to the goofy angled tailshaft foot. It also puts the speedometer cable on the wrong side.
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Most of the GM Camaro T-5's came with the standard GM trans to bellhousing bolt pattern. There was a point (late 80's/early 90's???) where they went to the Ford bolt pattern (likely a Chevy Guy day of mourning) but again you are dealing with the the input shaft length being different in addition to the points you made. Also a lot of those GM T-5's aren't rated for a lot of torque. They never used them behind a 350, only 305's. They used the T-56 for the 350. At least the one thing some of the Camaro's had going for them (in a V-8 application) was the 2.95 first gear. But frankly it seems to be a lot of mix/match to get ratios, input shafts, shift lever locations that each application needs.
I've spent an extensive amount of time looking into a T-5 (or any Ford 5 speed) for my 289 Tiger and can get frustrating as nothing is ideal, or even close. And I'm hampered with a 5 bolt block and a vertical pattern Toploader bellhousing.
This is a pretty good discussion link on the T-5.
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/244421-t5-tranny-recommendations.html
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The Quaife T-9 is available with a variety of Ratios 1st thru 5th Gears. It's called a Clubman box and has a all alloy gearcase and some improvements internally. But it does have a limit to HP for reliability (190) and it's over 2000 Pounds UK in price. The Rocket box is indeed a 4speed with other ratios available, but again , a expensive option.
My comments were related to Hillclimb racing and the effect of a single ratio (3:40) not being ideal for that usage. My car went down the road in 4th just fine with the 23 inch tires and that gear on regular roads and street usage. Fuel mileage was acceptable with dual DCOE 40's and the car regularly delivered 25 MPG if you kept a light foot on the highway.
If your application requires a 5th gear, then I would recommend the T-9 with its limitations
Pintosopher, It's in the Feed Mix that makes for happy horses ;D
Thanks for the info. It sound like Quaife is a one-stop-shop to get a superlative 5 speed built for the Pinto. But how the heck would they ship a transmission from England to the US and how much would it cost??? I am guessing by sea mail. If I could get it delivered for US $4000 or less I would be interested.
Hill climb racing is quite a bit different than daily driving. Not sure my requirements parallel yours. Also my engine is way under 190 horsepower so I don't think the HP limits of the T9 would be an issue.
If you happen to have an e-mail for someone at Quaife let me know. They didn't list any on their website and it is impractical for me to telephone during the day.
Kim
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Kim,
No E-mail in any part of the UK site. Once upon a time there was a Quaife USA distributor, Unable to find at this time. I'm sending you this attachment to use for a suitability exercise with a Stock Merkur T-9 . I may have access to a used one thru a close friend that converted his Merkur to a T-5 that was really boosted in HP ( Later the car was rear ended and totaled) . In the meantime, I've left my email with Quaife UK to further this endeavor.. I'm intrigued with a T-9 and would like to price out a Iron case t-9 for my racer. :)
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... I'm intrigued with a T-9 and would like to price out a Iron case t-9 for my racer. :)
You can't import a cast iron case into California. They weigh too much and would eat precious fuel resources. And as we all know Jerky Clown does like anything that might pollute the (smoke filled by massive fires) air. ;D
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You can't import a cast iron case into California. They weigh too much and would eat precious fuel resources. And as we all know Jerky Clown does like anything that might pollute the (smoke filled by massive fires) air. ;D
Well, the Crown prince of Bovine logic will just have to eat Tofu.. ;D I may have to default to an aluminum case( to save on Shipping) and we all know that european aluminum is made from old WW2 warbirds :o. Helping the manufacturers of the Crown doesn't bother me, ( I spend a ton on Teutonic pieces for the Hare). My Pinto would spin its mainshafts happily on Needle bearings and the ratio choices would have me in hillclimb nirvana, even in a non sequential "H" pattern.
Pintosopher, a known extraction tool to clean up the "stables" , Honey wagon awaits filling ;D
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For a sort of ultimate guide on T-9's:
http://www.classicfordmag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Classic-Ford-May-2011-Ford-Type-9-five-speed-guide.pdf
As far as I know BGH are still in business, see there website and pricelist:
http://www.bghgeartech.co.uk/html/5_speed.html
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Help. All I get on the classic ford mag site is blank pages.
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Dick , Sent you an email with PDF file for the Mag shown here..
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Got it Joe! Thanks. It looks like some of the T9 parts would fit a 4 speed tranie too. I keep looking on the Merkur site but most of the T9's are gone and replaced by a T5 long ago.
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Kim,
No E-mail in any part of the UK site. Once upon a time there was a Quaife USA distributor, Unable to find at this time. I'm sending you this attachment to use for a suitability exercise with a Stock Merkur T-9 . I may have access to a used one thru a close friend that converted his Merkur to a T-5 that was really boosted in HP ( Later the car was rear ended and totaled) . In the meantime, I've left my email with Quaife UK to further this endeavor.. I'm intrigued with a T-9 and would like to price out a Iron case t-9 for my racer. :)
Thanks for the info. I did find an e-mail address on the site, sent an e-mail, but nobody answered it.
If you are in the UK, could you call them for me, and see if they do orders shipped to the US? If not, I won't spend any more time on inquires.
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There is a speed shop / sports car shop / tranie shop in Plano, Texas by the name of Taylor Racing or something like that that builds the T9 type tranies for sport car racing. Their known all over the country for their work. I bought one of their close ratio Pinto tranies a long time ago. Worked like a charm.
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Try http://www.taylor-race.com (http://www.taylor-race.com) or 1-800-922-4327
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Try http://www.taylor-race.com (http://www.taylor-race.com) or 1-800-922-4327
Just went to the Web site... $3795 for Sierra 5 speed .. Straight cut gears only though..
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The T5 are out there. Im on a 2.0 conversion now and it was removed, ready to go for $200. I can make that up in gas savings for a year!
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The T5 are out there. Im on a 2.0 conversion now and it was removed, ready to go for $200. I can make that up in gas savings for a year!
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You would need a very strong 2.0 engine to pull overdrive with any rear end ratio ever put in a Pinto by the factory. 3:55 is the very lowest gear put into Pintos from the factory and was in station wagons. Most Pintos came with gears around 3:00 and an overdrive is the last thing you would be able to use. It would take about 175 hp to pull such a gear and we both know that hp with a 2.0 is ONLY in an all out race car. 140 hp with a 2.0 is reasonable but with a lot of work and $$$$.
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You would need a very strong 2.0 engine to pull overdrive with any rear end ratio ever put in a Pinto by the factory. 3:55 is the very lowest gear put into Pintos from the factory and was in station wagons. Most Pintos came with gears around 3:00 and an overdrive is the last thing you would be able to use. It would take about 175 hp to pull such a gear and we both know that hp with a 2.0 is ONLY in an all out race car. 140 hp with a 2.0 is reasonable but with a lot of work and $$$$.
Well, my T5 conversion with 3.4 gears and 205 60 13 tires worked out great. And im running the same tires 3.55 rear with a T9. Both 2.0 maybe 110hp meaning relatively stock. This isnt my first rodeo, itll be fine.
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You would need a very strong 2.0 engine to pull overdrive with any rear end ratio ever put in a Pinto by the factory. 3:55 is the very lowest gear put into Pintos from the factory and was in station wagons. Most Pintos came with gears around 3:00 and an overdrive is the last thing you would be able to use. It would take about 175 hp to pull such a gear and we both know that hp with a 2.0 is ONLY in an all out race car. 140 hp with a 2.0 is reasonable but with a lot of work and $$$$.
And my 3.55 rear is stock in a 72 sedan. The 3.4 gear car was a swapped 8".
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Hi..
Not sure if this will duplicate since i tried to post it previously..
Looks like Dick and I are both recommending the same place...
I got some parts for my 73 pinto 4 speed at
https://www.taylor-race.com
The fellow there builds a lot of 4 and 5 speed racing transmissions based on the german 4 and 5 speed top loaders with the integral shifters.
You might want to call Taylor and pick his brain.. when i was there I got the idea that he builds all sorts of gearboxes.. be may have a used box in good shape, or recommend a source for a good used box.
I also had a 72 capri and it did not have the integral shifter like the pinto 4 speed, it had a side mounted external shifter.
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I forward Dick's post about the rear end ratio.. I guess I lucked out with my wagon, it has 3:40 and with 14" tires the ratio is ideal for highway 1900 at 40 mph, 3000 at 70.
I think i have a wide ratio 4 speed because its pretty spunky off the line wit a 4 degree cam advance..
I would still recomment a swap to 14 " tires and alloy rims... I also switched to a 17 tooth speedo gear and the speedo and odometer is right on
As far as appearance, I actually get a lot of positive comments on my rims and the car seems to handle better.
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Pix of pinto rims
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Pix of pinto rims
To each his own. 13x7 fake panasports, real ones are reserved for race car.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171018/80f1fdfb0e54e691618d3cd92bed7930.jpg)
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Everything on a 2.0 Capri behind the crankshaft back is different from what is used on a Pinto. The tranie / flywheel / clutch / shifter /starter / driveshaft / rear end / bellhousing. It all different because it came from over seas, not the USA. Most of our stock Pinto parts were made here or in Germany. Lucas made the Capri starter and as such it will not work on a 2.0 Pinto. We already know the tranie and shifter is different. I had several friends who raced Capri's in SCCA and they all complained that they could not use Pinto parts when they had tranie problems. Replacing the tranie was much more than unbolting the old and replacing it with a Pinto tranie. If your really interested, the Capri's have several really good web sites both here and over seas.
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Actually i discovered the difference when I built my capri in 1980.. the shifter was a real piece of work..
I had a feeling that the flywheel was different as well..
I have a capri block that I am rebuilding... I assume that the blocks are the same and have rhe same bellhousing mounting holes, etc.
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Pix of pinto rims
VERY NICE! I didn't mean that the wagons only came with a 3:55, just that was just an option and Ford did not make a lower gear. 4:11 and 4:30 gears were made by Zoom when the cars were new in the 70's. About every 5 years I'll see a set on e-bay for sale. Very rare parts. And yes the tranies are wide ratios with second gear having a different ratio in some of the tranies. Why? Who knows but they are much looked for by the dirt track people for mini stock. BTW the blocks are the same.
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Actually i discovered the difference when I built my capri in 1980.. the shifter was a real piece of work..
I had a feeling that the flywheel was different as well..
I have a capri block that I am rebuilding... I assume that the blocks are the same and have rhe same bellhousing mounting holes, etc.
Sorry, the capri does have side loader. I was wrong. Capri oil pan, dipstick, balancer (small cast unit), and front crankshaft housing different as well.
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Look at http://www.hvidberg.com/capri.htm (http://www.hvidberg.com/capri.htm) and the capri club of Chicago and capri club of north America On the capri club of Chicago look at the drive line tech tips for a how to do it on electronic ignition for a 2.0 and how to do a T5 swap on a 2.0.
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Look at http://www.teamblitz.com (http://www.teamblitz.com) for more 2.0 stuff.
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As for the 4 spd pinto trans.. I really like mine... with the stock engine it launches really well in 1st and if I shift out of 1st at about 4500 at about 25 mph it drops into 2nd at about 2300 just at the bottom of the power curve with the cam advance. 2nd gear tops about 45 mph at 4000. 4th at 45 mph is about 1900.
so I usually just do 1st, 2nd, 4th around town and only use 3rd when i need power on the fwy or slow to 35.
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Look at http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103512 (http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103512) For more T9 info.
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LTFM don't want to derail the topic, but I'm curious about your wagon's roof color. I can't tell if it is primer, or silver. Also, what was the cut off point at the rear? I'm in the process of prepping my wagon to epoxy prime as it has significant surface rust. I actually like the two color look and am contemplating doing mine in a different color. I've seen a number of "cut off at the rear" points in my mind but seeing one in real life would be interesting.
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The roof paint is actually Rustoleum rattlecan "hammered silver".
When the previous owner found it the luggage rack had been removed and some of the mounting points were rusted and he couldnt match the paint so he two toned it.
Heres a pic of the rear section
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Thank you for the picture. It seems a hard decision to find an acceptable cut-off point with the many intersecting lines/curves etc.. Perhaps I'll reconsider doing it in factory white like the rest of the car. So. Cal. has been hot and windy and epoxy priming outdoors needs to wait for just the right day. But after 10 years of "I'll get to it next year" I just decided that it IS going to happen... soon.
Update: I had my nephew add a bit of roof color to what I thought was the best tie-in line and then change it to a flattened black. So, I thought I'd post it here in case you might have similar considerations .
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You would need a very strong 2.0 engine to pull overdrive with any rear end ratio ever put in a Pinto by the factory. 3:55 is the very lowest gear put into Pintos from the factory and was in station wagons. Most Pintos came with gears around 3:00 and an overdrive is the last thing you would be able to use. It would take about 175 hp to pull such a gear and we both know that hp with a 2.0 is ONLY in an all out race car. 140 hp with a 2.0 is reasonable but with a lot of work and $$$$.
3:55 was available as the standard rear ratio when I bought mine in 1971 with a 2.0
There was a 3:73 available but I believe it came only in the earlier cars with the 1.6
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The 1.6L cars needed all the help they could get as they were VERY under powered. I drove one in the Dallas rush hour traffic on the LBJ free way one day and I though I'd die any minute. The traffic was going 70+ and the Pinto with the gas pedal on the floor would not go that fast. Got off as soon as I could. Not one of Fords good ideas.
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The 1.6L cars needed all the help they could get as they were VERY under powered. I drove one in the Dallas rush hour traffic on the LBJ free way one day and I though I'd die any minute. The traffic was going 70+ and the Pinto with the gas pedal on the floor would not go that fast. Got off as soon as I could. Not one of Fords good ideas.
The brown '72 sedan I owned from 2007 - 2013 had the 1.6L and it would cruise all day at 70 mph; it just took a while to reach that speed! lol
Dwayne :)
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The 1.6L engines worked much better in the English cars in the 60's and 70's due to less EPA bs I guess. Was used for a long time in the SCCA race cars. I had several friends who raced Pinto with a 1.6L due to the fact they fit in a lower class in road racing back then.
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Most of the GM Camaro T-5's came with the standard GM trans to bellhousing bolt pattern. There was a point (late 80's/early 90's???) where they went to the Ford bolt pattern (likely a Chevy Guy day of mourning) but again you are dealing with the the input shaft length being different in addition to the points you made. Also a lot of those GM T-5's aren't rated for a lot of torque. They never used them behind a 350, only 305's. They used the T-56 for the 350. At least the one thing some of the Camaro's had going for them (in a V-8 application) was the 2.95 first gear. But frankly it seems to be a lot of mix/match to get ratios, input shafts, shift lever locations that each application needs.
I did this swap over the last year. I used the front half of the ford spec T-5 and the back half of a GM spec T5. i did put the shifter in the right place, but the speedo gear now reads off the BOTTOM of the output shaft ( not the top like it did on the ford) so it would have spun the speedo cable backwards- which means your old pinto speedo isn't going to work anymore- so i installed a Vehicle speed sensor instead. I will end up just using an electric speedo when I'm done with my project.
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Salutations y'all;
What is the collective point of view on a 5 speed trans for a 72 122c.i. engine?
I'm seeing a lot about the crappy 2.3, but not a lot on the 122c.i. Trans transplant.
Thank'ee & cheers
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Not sure about 5 speed in 2.0 but I have a 4 speed in my car with 3.40rear end and 14" aftermarket rims and tires and it does everything i need it to.
It seems to have a wide ratio low gear so starts are good, 1st finishes at 25-30 mph, 2nd at 45-50.
When properly built or even stock the 122 has a long power curve so I like the rather long gears, i see a lot of newer cars wirh 6 speeds and they shift about 3-4 times before I am out of 2nd and each takes time and clutch wear.
Especially the new mustangs, they make a lot of noise and Sometimes they shift 1st to 2nd before they cross the intersection but i keep up with them in my lil 122.
I would spend the money beefing up your engine for more power and torque and save a lot of adapter headaches.
Maybe just invest in a better carburetor like the standard ford or motorcraft 2bbl instead of the webber and let 5he engine work for you.
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Salutations y'all;
What is the collective point of view on a 5 speed trans for a 72 122c.i. engine?
I'm seeing a lot about the crappy 2.3, but not a lot on the 122c.i. Trans transplant.
Thank'ee & cheers
I like the 5 spd behind both of my 2.0. One has a T9 while other has T5. Run factory 3.55 gears with 205 60 13 tire. Fast and good gas mileage. T5 shifts smoother
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
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Salutations y'all;
What is the collective point of view on a 5 speed trans for a 72 122c.i. engine?
I'm seeing a lot about the crappy 2.3, but not a lot on the 122c.i. Trans transplant.
Thank'ee & cheers
The obvious option for North America is a T9 five-speed as it is heavily based on the Pinto's four-speed.
More importantly, what do you mean "crappy" 2.3?
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You might check out these guys.. they do a lot of gearboxes race cars including the 2.0 sohc pintos.. pricy.. but they might be able to provide some interchaninfo.
They are helpful.. i got a roll pin for my gearbox there
http://www.taylor-race.com
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The obvious option for North America is a T9 five-speed as it is heavily based on the Pinto's four-speed.
More importantly, what do you mean "crappy" 2.3?
Thank'ee.
Everyone I know that has had one despises it, evidently due to known issues w/ it's design & powerband issues.
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Ah, I see. The NA 2.3 was pretty wheezy and weighty, but never really had any major design flaws that I know of. It was even used in industrial and marine applications, both of which will find a weak point if there is one to be found.
That said, the 2.0 EAO is easier to get NA power out of despite the bad intake ports and it's quite a bit lighter.
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Thank'ee.
Everyone I know that has had one despises it, evidently due to known issues w/ it's design & powerband issues.
Well, not everyone. I've had the 1.6L in a 1972, the 2.0L in another 1972, and two 1974's and a 1978 Mercury Zephyr all with the 2.3L and I prefer the 2.3L, hands down. No contest so far as I'm concerned, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Dwayne :)
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Since many of you all have con erted to 5 speed.. do any of you sti have a decent factory 4 speed you coulde part with.. my 4 speed is beginning to whine a bit in 1st and 2nd and since I an redoing the 2.0 engine, I was thinking of getting a spare trans that I could rebuild to keep on hand..
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Since many of you all have con erted to 5 speed.. do any of you sti have a decent factory 4 speed you coulde part with.. my 4 speed is beginning to whine a bit in 1st and 2nd and since I an redoing the 2.0 engine, I was thinking of getting a spare trans that I could rebuild to keep on hand..
front input shaft bearing and the countershaft needle bearings. good luck. easy to do but I don't think the parts are going to be easy to find. especially the needle bearings.
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I found a rebuild kit for the FoG 4 speed here.. what do you think
http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/ford_fog_rwd.html
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sounds good but try to find out what is included in what the vendor calls a "small parts kit"
you should definitely replace all the needle bearings that the counter shaft rolls on & definitely get the kit that includes new brass synchro rings
I found a rebuild kit for the FoG 4 speed here.. what do you think
http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/ford_fog_rwd.html (http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/ford_fog_rwd.html)
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I called Taylor Engineering here in dallas and they stock all the parts to rebuild a WoG 4 speed..
They specialize in racing gearboxes and have what they call a "Rocket" which is an upgraded 4 speed and a "Sierra" which is the mercur 5 speed..
The racing transmissions sell for about $2000 for a basic unit up to about $6000 for a full on dog box which is supposed to be good for 300 hp.
They will rebuild a 4 speed for about $500 and sell misc parts as well..
A.set of needle bearings for the countershaft is $55.
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The racing transmissions sell for about $2000 for a basic unit up to about $6000 for a full on dog box which is supposed to be good for 300 hp.
https://lencoracing.com/ST1200-4-Speed
;D
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Hummm..., my 150K miles T-5 that came out of the Turbo Coupe still functions fine. And parts are available. If you get the one with the bellcrank the Pinto clutch cable connects. A simple plate of steel with two holes gets it over the crossmember. The stock Auto rubber trans mount was a bolt on (assume the manual is too) and all the steel mount required was a bit of slotting. In my case I went from a C-4 Auto trans/6-3/4" rear to a T-5/8" rear and the driveshaft fit without alteration.
So, basically what I'm saying is why spend a lot of money rebuilding the lesser stock Pinto 4-speed with hard to find parts? While they aren't falling off trees the 2.3 version of the T-5 at a Pick Your Part 40% off sale is under $100 out the door. They are rated at 240 Ft. lb. and mine has held up to the 190 HP of my Turbo motor. I can't account for every drive shaft fitment but with my C-4 to T-5 swap I could either spend $$$ to adapt the driveshaft to the length of the weak 6-3/4 rear, or spend roughly $75 (40% off price) for a much stronger 8" and use the unaltered driveshaft. It is a no brainer.
For those that say the 5th gear of a T-5 isn't practical for the 2.0 engine..., well, just don't use it. You are still getting a better (useful 4 gears) transmission that likely suffices without a rebuild. And if it does need one, the parts aren't hard to find.
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My consideration is that my car is an unrestored Galpin survivor numbers car and i dont want to modify or cut it up.. ive done some minor bolt on mods like pertronix and carburetors but nothing that cant be put back..
Im doing a rebuilt engine to 1971 compression specs to drive and keeping the factory engine for my grandkids if they want to put it back to completely stock..
I understand that there are stronger parts out there but i just want to keep mine stock..
And I dont really beat on mine.. just want to find spares while they are still moderately available..
Theres a 72 wagon in the classifieds herethat is already converted with turbo coupe engine, 5 speed and 8 inch already installed..