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Offline Henrius

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Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« on: October 05, 2017, 10:55:14 AM »
I upped the horsepower quite a bit on my 1973 2.0 liter engine and would now like to slow the revs down in my Runabout.


The posts on modifying for the T-5 transmission have been interesting, but the stickshift would be at a different position and necessitate a new carpet- again!


Somewhere I heard that there was  Merkur 5-speed transmission that would bolt right up with no mods. It might have been a T-8. Is it indeed compatible? If so, where could I look for one of these rare transmissions?
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2017, 11:43:17 AM »
The Merkur tranie was a T9 and is more or less a Pinto tranie with overdrive added on. I see them all the time on the Merkur web sites. Not any stronger than a Pinto 4 speed but worked ok in the heavy and more powerful Merkur's so they SHOULD be ok in a Pinto.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2017, 01:46:59 PM »
The posts on modifying for the T-5 transmission have been interesting, but the stickshift would be at a different position and necessitate a new carpet- again!


The 2.3 T-5 moves the shifter forward... but not that far. A console can easily hide the forward offset. The most popular being the Mustang II console.  Others have used the the Merkur console (I have) though it is a bit "plasticy" and the front of it ends abruptly.  I'm sure there are other consoles out there that would work. I have the VW Rabbit console in my Datsun 510 and it is somewhat similar to the Pinto (sort of) console. The point being with a bit of creativity you can have the 2.3 T-5 and gain the looks and advantages of a console.

 Something I would do is ask around about the 5 speed and the 2.0. My recollection was that in previous questions it was discouraged. The reason being there was not enough torque in the engine at the highway RPM (reduced with the overdrive) to make it reasonable.  Where as you have increased HP in the 2.0 it is likely in a higher RPM than the cruising RPM range.  You owe it to yourself to at least prompt the question before investing the time and money.  Make sure you post your rear gear ratio and tire size in any question you may ask.

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2017, 02:37:44 PM »
The T9 would in my opinion be the preferred tranny upgrade for a Pinto 2.0, and indeed here in Europe it is the most common transplant.
You can read about my conversion to a T9 in my project. No transmission tunnel issues and gear lever in the right place.
However, The T9's available in the States come from 2.3 Lima Merkur's. I don't know if the bellhousing and input shaft of these T9's will be directly compatible with the 2.0. If not, then those parts will most probably have to come from Europe.
The transmission mount will have to be adapted, and probably driveshaft shortened and yoke changed. If the Merkur's had an electronic speedo, the transmission will not have a mechanical speedo drive, also something to keep in mind.
 

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2017, 04:06:13 AM »
According to a transmission sbop here in Dallas that builds racing transmissions, the mercur 5 speed is just a pinto 4 speed with an added secti9n in the rear with an additional gear.

Something you might want to look at is just moving up to 14" wheels and tires.  My wagon has 14 " alloy rims and 14" tires and 3.40 rear gears.  The combo probably equals about 3.20 gears, the difference a 1.1:1 overdrive would produce  the stock 4 spd is a wide ratio so starting off the line is no problem and it cruises pretty well.  The revs at 40 mph in 4th gear are about 1900 and at
70 mph right at 3000
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline Pintosopher

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2017, 10:19:35 AM »

The 2.3 T-5 moves the shifter forward... but not that far. A console can easily hide the forward offset. The most popular being the Mustang II console.  Others have used the the Merkur console (I have) though it is a bit "plasticy" and the front of it ends abruptly.  I'm sure there are other consoles out there that would work. I have the VW Rabbit console in my Datsun 510 and it is somewhat similar to the Pinto (sort of) console. The point being with a bit of creativity you can have the 2.3 T-5 and gain the looks and advantages of a console.

 Something I would do is ask around about the 5 speed and the 2.0. My recollection was that in previous questions it was discouraged. The reason being there was not enough torque in the engine at the highway RPM (reduced with the overdrive) to make it reasonable.  Where as you have increased HP in the 2.0 it is likely in a higher RPM than the cruising RPM range.  You owe it to yourself to at least prompt the question before investing the time and money.  Make sure you post your rear gear ratio and tire size in any question you may ask.

 I suppose it depends on the Ratios available in the T9. I shopped around for the Ford 4 speed that had the closer 1st to 2nd ratios  for AutoX, but later went to hillclimbing and would have needed a 5 speed or the Closer 2nd 3rd 4th ratio box. Of course, a Quaife Rocket box can solve anything if you have the $$$. I had to use 20inch diameter slicks to get my final drive (3:40) to even pull the longer straight sections , and that's with 170 hp @ 6500RPM . 4th was nearly unusable everywhere.

 Pintosopher, Spinning the driveshaft, not Yarns :D
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2017, 12:59:24 PM »
I think Pintony had a T9 in his wagon and he had the tech on here of how he did it. Should be in the search forum.
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Offline robertwwithee

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2017, 08:01:28 PM »
The T9 would in my opinion be the preferred tranny upgrade for a Pinto 2.0, and indeed here in Europe it is the most common transplant.
You can read about my conversion to a T9 in my project. No transmission tunnel issues and gear lever in the right place.
However, The T9's available in the States come from 2.3 Lima Merkur's. I don't know if the bellhousing and input shaft of these T9's will be directly compatible with the 2.0. If not, then those parts will most probably have to come from Europe.
The transmission mount will have to be adapted, and probably driveshaft shortened and yoke changed. If the Merkur's had an electronic speedo, the transmission will not have a mechanical speedo drive, also something to keep in mind.
I just picked a T9 from merkur.  Let u know how it goes next week.  I did the T5 already.  3.4 rear, 23imch tire, 70mph/3000rpms. Netted 32mpg

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Offline Henrius

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2017, 09:12:35 PM »
The Merkur tranie was a T9 and is more or less a Pinto tranie with overdrive added on. I see them all the time on the Merkur web sites. Not any stronger than a Pinto 4 speed but worked ok in the heavy and more powerful Merkur's so they SHOULD be ok in a Pinto.

What Merkur website are you talking about, and where in the heck do you find a Merkur T-9? I don't even remember Merkur cars in the US!
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Offline Henrius

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2017, 09:14:52 PM »
Something I would do is ask around about the 5 speed and the 2.0. My recollection was that in previous questions it was discouraged. The reason being there was not enough torque in the engine at the highway RPM (reduced with the overdrive) to make it reasonable.  Where as you have increased HP in the 2.0 it is likely in a higher RPM than the cruising RPM range.  You owe it to yourself to at least prompt the question before investing the time and money.  Make sure you post your rear gear ratio and tire size in any question you may ask.

Thanks for the reply. In increased the compression ratio to 9.5:1, put in larger valves, headers, and increased cam lift and duration. The car feels like it has more torque at all RPMs, but I have not dyno-tested it.
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Offline Henrius

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 09:17:23 PM »
According to a transmission sbop here in Dallas that builds racing transmissions, the mercur 5 speed is just a pinto 4 speed with an added secti9n in the rear with an additional gear.

Something you might want to look at is just moving up to 14" wheels and tires.  My wagon has 14 " alloy rims and 14" tires and 3.40 rear gears.  The combo probably equals about 3.20 gears, the difference a 1.1:1 overdrive would produce  the stock 4 spd is a wide ratio so starting off the line is no problem and it cruises pretty well.  The revs at 40 mph in 4th gear are about 1900 and at
70 mph right at 3000

Thanks. I have considered 14" rims. Problem is I am trying to keep looks original and I could not use the original hubcaps.

Plus reverse speed is so fast as it is, and converting to larger tires would make it even faster.
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2017, 10:06:23 AM »
What Merkur website are you talking about, and where in the heck do you find a Merkur T-9? I don't even remember Merkur cars in the US!
   MERKUR CLUB OF AMERICA
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2017, 10:11:38 AM »
Reverse speed so fast? More info please.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2017, 05:19:55 PM »
As I've stated before when I got my Pinto back in 2007 I'd find about five Turbo Coupes every month when I went to Pick Your Part 50% off sales. Then within six months it trickled down to about one per trip.  Since about 2012 I think I've seen maybe one Turbo Coupe per year - if that.  Initially with the Merkur I'd see maybe one or two per trip, then shortly thereafter sporadically one or two for a few years. I don't think I've seen even one in over 5+ years.

Many of the upgrade parts (T/C, Murkur etc.) that were prevalent 10 years ago are very, very hard to find now.  A while back I made a post to that effect and asked, 'What are the most likely modern powertrain transplants to consider' given the limited parts that were typically used?  Maybe it is time to revisit that idea.

And, yea, that reverse speed thing? The only thing I can think of is a very high cold idle with an auto trans... (no clutch to slip), but the tire size wouldn't make that much difference.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2017, 08:39:53 AM »
I like you never see a Merkur any more, but the Merkur Club of America has 4769 members. I'm a member just to look for 2300 parts. Very good web site.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2017, 10:05:42 PM »
I have a penchant for somewhat quirky cars and I'd think the Merkur somewhat fits that.  If it wasn't for the Calif. smog laws I'd consider one for a daily driver. Here is an oddity..., for as few Merkur's as I've seen there was a time about 8 years ago I went to a self serve yard after the Knott's Car Show and there were I think six Merkur's all lined up together. Sadly they were pulling cars in that row and I had a very short time to consider anything.

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2017, 04:51:51 PM »
An early Capri would be another good find. The Capri club of America is a fairly large club so the cars are still out there. The Mexico Escort would be in the top of my bucket list.
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Offline Pintosopher

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 07:14:51 AM »
An early Capri would be another good find. The Capri club of America is a fairly large club so the cars are still out there. The Mexico Escort would be in the top of my bucket list.

 I'll take one of these please, next to my Pinto version
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Offline Henrius

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2017, 05:20:27 AM »
An early Capri would be another good find. The Capri club of America is a fairly large club so the cars are still out there. The Mexico Escort would be in the top of my bucket list.

But I thought early Capris had the same 4 speed that the 2.0 Pinto had. When did they have a 5-speed? Was it that same tranny as the Merkur T-9?
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Offline Henrius

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2017, 05:39:31 AM »
I suppose it depends on the Ratios available in the T9. I shopped around for the Ford 4 speed that had the closer 1st to 2nd ratios  for AutoX, but later went to hillclimbing and would have needed a 5 speed or the Closer 2nd 3rd 4th ratio box. Of course, a Quaife Rocket box can solve anything if you have the $$$. I had to use 20inch diameter slicks to get my final drive (3:40) to even pull the longer straight sections , and that's with 170 hp @ 6500RPM . 4th was nearly unusable everywhere.

 Pintosopher, Spinning the driveshaft, not Yarns :D

The Quaife Rocket Box seems to be a FOUR speed with close gears, so I don't see how they would slow down the engine revs on the highway.

Thos Merkur T-9s are sure rare. Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay. How easy is it to swap the bell housing from my original 4 speed to the T-5? I am starting to wonder if this is a worthwhile project.
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Offline Henrius

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2017, 05:44:15 AM »
I just picked a T9 from merkur.  Let u know how it goes next week.  I did the T5 already.  3.4 rear, 23imch tire, 70mph/3000rpms. Netted 32mpg

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Your car had the T5, and you are converting to a T9? Just curious, why are you doing that? Was the T-5 conversion not satisfactory?
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2017, 07:39:54 AM »
The Quaife Rocket Box seems to be a FOUR speed with close gears, so I don't see how they would slow down the engine revs on the highway.

Thos Merkur T-9s are sure rare. Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay. How easy is it to swap the bell housing from my original 4 speed to the T-5? I am starting to wonder if this is a worthwhile project.
The Quaife T-9 is available with a variety of Ratios 1st thru 5th Gears. It's called a Clubman box and has a all alloy gearcase and some improvements internally. But it does have a limit to HP for reliability (190) and it's over 2000 Pounds UK in price. The Rocket box is indeed a 4speed with other ratios available, but again , a expensive option.
 My comments were related to Hillclimb racing and the effect of a single ratio (3:40) not being ideal for that usage. My car went down the road in 4th just fine with the 23 inch tires and that gear on regular roads and street usage. Fuel mileage was acceptable with dual DCOE 40's and the car regularly delivered 25 MPG if you kept a light foot on the highway.
 If your application requires a 5th gear, then I would recommend the T-9 with its limitations

 Pintosopher, It's in the Feed Mix that makes for happy horses ;D
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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2017, 12:13:27 PM »
Perhaps the better question we should be asking is what is your budget for this 5 speed swap?  The Merkur T-9 is likely a very hard find and from what I've heard not as stout as a T-5. The Quaife T-9 that Pintosopher mentioned is likely $3,000+ to your front door.  A self pulled, 2.3*, T-5 (if you can find one) from a self serve wrecking yard is likely about $150. That is quite a cost difference.

*You mentioned " Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay."  BE AWARE I just did an Ebay search of "T-5 Transmission" and of the first 200 hits that came up NONE were for the 2.3 Ford version of the T-5.  They were either the Mustang or the Camaro.  The Mustang trans has a different length input shaft and the Camaro like wise, plus in most years the Camaro had a different bolt pattern. S-10 T-5's are also different.  I then did a search for "T-5 Transmission 2.3" and ONE transmission came up.  I see 2.3 input shafts on Ebay in the $80-$100 range but I'm not sure that is all you need to convert the 5.0 trans. Plus for better or worse you get the 5.0 ratios.

I live in So. Cal. where cars linger longer and parts tend to be more readily available.  I went to two self serve yards nearly every month for the past 20 years.  I'm going to say in the past 8 years I've seen two T-5 Turbo Coupes and maybe one to none T-5 2.3 Mustangs. So, even 2.3 T-5's aren't just lying around on the ground.  Think this through before committing. Tire size, rear axle ratio, type of driving, budget, mechanical skills, expectations, alterations (driveshaft, speedometer, shift lever location, clutch disc etc.) - are just a few things that come to mind.

I was fortunate that my '88 Turbo Coupe was my daily driver for 10 years. An insurance pay out (other parties fault) basically made the car free. It just so happened that my C-4, 6-3/4" rear end driveshaft fit perfectly to my T-5, 8" swapped rear end without alteration. I still had to hunt up a 86 or older bellcrank bellhousing (87-88 were hydraulic), pedals, cable, make the trans crossmember modifications, create a new cable mount (elevate over the crossmember), shorten the shifter etc.. So it is not just out with the old and bolt in the new. I'm not trying to discourage, but I do feel a responsibility to present many of the aspects of the swap.


Update: I ran the tag number and it is an 87-88 Mustang/Capri 2.3 trans. So, it is WC.  1352-162 Ford 87-88 Mustang/Cap ri 2.3 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1 0.79 3.7 7T Y(WC)  http://www.mongosgarage.com/tech/t5/T5Numbers.PDF


Here is the Ebay link:  Pa&vxp=mtr" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mustang-t5-transmission-87-88-2-3-79-93-ford-/122625095872?hash=item1c8d0678c0:g:iHMAAOSwj85Zf0 Pa&vxp=mtr

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2017, 03:37:20 PM »
A big thank you for the T5 list. Now we know.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2017, 06:09:51 PM »
There is also the GM (Camaro?) T5 option that puts the shifter in the right place, but needs a custom crossmember/mount due to the goofy angled tailshaft foot. It also puts the speedometer cable on the wrong side.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2017, 06:42:40 PM »
Most of the GM Camaro T-5's came with the standard GM trans to bellhousing bolt pattern. There was a point (late 80's/early 90's???) where they went to the Ford bolt pattern (likely a Chevy Guy day of mourning) but again you are dealing with the the input shaft length being different in addition to the points you made.  Also a lot of those GM T-5's aren't rated for a lot of torque. They never used them behind a 350, only 305's. They used the T-56 for the 350. At least the one thing some of the Camaro's had going for them (in a V-8 application) was the 2.95 first gear.  But frankly it seems to be a lot of mix/match to get ratios, input shafts, shift lever locations that each application needs.


I've spent an extensive amount of time looking into a T-5 (or any Ford 5 speed) for my 289 Tiger and can get frustrating as nothing is ideal, or even close. And I'm hampered with a 5 bolt block and a vertical pattern Toploader bellhousing.



This is a pretty good discussion link on the T-5.


http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/244421-t5-tranny-recommendations.html

Offline Henrius

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2017, 09:09:36 PM »
The Quaife T-9 is available with a variety of Ratios 1st thru 5th Gears. It's called a Clubman box and has a all alloy gearcase and some improvements internally. But it does have a limit to HP for reliability (190) and it's over 2000 Pounds UK in price. The Rocket box is indeed a 4speed with other ratios available, but again , a expensive option.
 My comments were related to Hillclimb racing and the effect of a single ratio (3:40) not being ideal for that usage. My car went down the road in 4th just fine with the 23 inch tires and that gear on regular roads and street usage. Fuel mileage was acceptable with dual DCOE 40's and the car regularly delivered 25 MPG if you kept a light foot on the highway.
 If your application requires a 5th gear, then I would recommend the T-9 with its limitations

 Pintosopher, It's in the Feed Mix that makes for happy horses ;D

Thanks for the info. It sound like Quaife is a one-stop-shop to get a superlative 5 speed built for the Pinto. But how the heck would they ship a transmission from England to the US and how much would it cost??? I am guessing by sea mail. If I could get it delivered for US $4000 or less I would be interested.

Hill climb racing is quite a bit different than daily driving. Not sure my requirements parallel yours. Also my engine is way under 190 horsepower so I don't think the HP limits of the T9 would be an issue.

If you happen to have an e-mail for someone at Quaife let me know. They didn't list any on their website and it is impractical for me to telephone during the day.

Kim
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2017, 09:25:02 AM »
Kim,
 No E-mail in any part of the UK site. Once upon a time there was a Quaife USA distributor, Unable to find at this time. I'm sending you this attachment to use for a suitability exercise with a Stock Merkur  T-9 . I may have access to a used one thru a close friend that converted his Merkur to a T-5 that was really boosted in HP ( Later the car was rear ended and totaled) . In the meantime, I've left my email with Quaife UK to further this endeavor.. I'm intrigued with a T-9 and would like to price out a Iron case t-9 for my racer.  :)
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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2017, 12:18:41 PM »

...  I'm intrigued with a T-9 and would like to price out a Iron case t-9 for my racer.  :)


You can't import a cast iron case into California. They weigh too much and would eat precious fuel resources. And as we all know Jerky Clown does like anything that might pollute the (smoke filled by massive fires) air.  ;D

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Re: Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2017, 02:29:38 PM »

You can't import a cast iron case into California. They weigh too much and would eat precious fuel resources. And as we all know Jerky Clown does like anything that might pollute the (smoke filled by massive fires) air.  ;D
Well, the Crown prince of Bovine logic will just have to eat Tofu..  ;D  I may have to default to an aluminum case( to save on Shipping) and we all know that european aluminum is made from old WW2 warbirds :o.  Helping the manufacturers of the Crown doesn't bother me, ( I spend a ton on Teutonic pieces for the Hare). My Pinto would spin its mainshafts happily on Needle bearings and the ratio choices would have me in hillclimb nirvana, even in a non sequential "H" pattern.

 Pintosopher, a known extraction tool to clean up the "stables" , Honey wagon awaits filling ;D
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