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Offline tintmaster

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71 Pinto project, need help!!
« on: February 05, 2012, 01:35:25 PM »

I am putting a 3.8 from a '96 mustang in my 71 Pinto. I will be stroking it, leaving EFI and bottle feeding it! This will be my daily driver.


I want to use a C4 trans. I will be using a 29" tall x 12" wide tire on 10" Telstar wheels out back. It has a 9" rear narrowed, (33 spline axles, full spool, 5:56 gears), which I plan on changing gears and spool. I want to drive this car everyday and get decent gas mileage, yet still make peoples jaw drop! Estimated H.P. will be around 400 on motor, then 150 shot of funny juice, if needed!


My question is what bell housing do I use, stall converter, rear gear ratio, and posi unit? Also, I will need a custom gas tank made because of the cage. It has a 5 gallon in it, which won't be enough. I can measure the dimensions, does anyone know where I can get a Stainless gas tank made?


I will be driving it to work on the highway 30 miles 1 way with a 75 MPH speed limit by the way.


The car is how I bought it. I have a lot to do to get it ready, but I'm up to the challenge! And will be loosing the big snorkel on hood. Going to get a cowl hood, maybe 4"!
C. Eugene Brown

Offline tintmaster

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2012, 01:43:11 PM »
Also how can I update the front suspension so it will handle better? I have looked for tubular control arms, but no luck. I want to be able to go around a corner without all the body roll. I know it won't be a SCCA carver, but somethings got to be better!
C. Eugene Brown

Offline Cookieboystoys

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2012, 01:51:16 PM »
Also how can I update the front suspension so it will handle better?

sway bar
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Offline beaner

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2012, 02:26:16 PM »
you can use a small block bell
 
brad :)

Offline Reeves1

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2012, 08:21:40 PM »
Set up for a drag car.....sure you want to change it ?

Offline tintmaster

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 10:01:19 PM »
I will still race it, but I want it to be a sort of Pro Street. Hoping to run in the 10's on motor, and still get good gas mileage! :P
C. Eugene Brown

Offline 71hotrodpinto

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 04:40:39 PM »
Also how can I update the front suspension so it will handle better? I have looked for tubular control arms, but no luck. I want to be able to go around a corner without all the body roll. I know it won't be a SCCA carver, but somethings got to be better!

You dont need tubular control arms. Just rebuild the current arms with all new stuff. Search ebay. The upper ball joints are the same for all the years but the lowers are specific to the 71-72/73 years.

Poly strut bushings. They only make them for 74 and up but they fit mine perfectly.

I used new mustang II springs cut 2.5 coils (carefull! They do settle a bit after cutting!) and Koni shocks. KYB gas-a-just is also a great alternative.

A better solution is to check out QA1 and their Mustang II coil over setups. They were reported to be awesome by the Late Great Jeff ( AKA 78Pinto) BOLT IN ,and also adjustable.

As already said get a swaybar setup on it. Unless it was setup for one from the factory, your pretty much going to have to work at that one.  Tracking down all the related hardware for a stock 71-72 setup is very difficult. Also becarefull on the pan interferance at the front if you get an aftermarket one.

 Lastly get rid of the front runners. I know they are cool, in fact i was tempted myself but on a highway at 75 MPH if you have to dart to the left or right because of some butt that pulls out in front of you or you have to stop, you NEED some rubber under there. Get as wide as 205 60 15 or the like.
 
I was shocked at how well mine handled after the V8 conversion. Granted im not autocrossing the thing but a normal corner on the way to work was like "turn right,  done... What??"
Good luck on the 3.8 and i hope to hear of it later!
Robert




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Offline 71hotrodpinto

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 05:11:01 PM »
So i also had a thought about the transmission choice.
 Id stay away from the C4 for gas mileage issue.
You need overdrive IMO. at 70 to 75 your going to be using some rpm on the engine with a C4  and that will kill gas mileage. Best to put a T5 in it if you can.
Im thinking Thunderbird but im not sure that the 3.8 ever had one behind it. Hopfully someone else will chime in.
 
Or maybey an AOD 4 speed if you dont mind alot of work. That trans is big compared to the C4
 
Just some food for thought!


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Offline tintmaster

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 05:33:48 PM »
I don't want a manual trans, because I have hip problems. So I will do an overdrive unit then. Any suggestions? I want 1 that is not compter controlled.
C. Eugene Brown

Offline 71hotrodpinto

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 08:32:43 PM »
Ok i hear yah with the clutching issue.
 Well the AOD is a standard Automatic no electronics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AOD_transmission


Alot of good info there.


 Know that the bell is huge and your going to have packaging problems. Your going to have to rebuild the whole trans tunnle. Or maybe cutting out a tunnel from a car that came with this trans and then welding it in place of the small Pinto tunnel.( Which would probably be easier.)


 The easiest way of all ($$$) is do the C4 and then attach a Gear Vendors Overdrive to the back. Unless you have a buddy that wants to unload a good one for nothing, then your talking around $3500 by the time your done... But its the ultimate. Easy fit, great highway gears and great pulling gears for fun!
 Truth be known though, youll never re-coupe the cost in gas mileage! But it is nicer than watching and hearing your engine pulling 3200 rpms for 50 miles just trying to keep up with traffic! LOL



95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
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Offline JohnW

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 12:41:31 AM »
www.speedwaymo tors.com has got various brand and price tubular control arms that they claim will work on stock MII/Pinto front ends as well as coilover kits like this. There's one for $350 that I'm probably going to get down the road: http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Carrera-Mustang-II-Bolt-On-Coil-Over-Kit,182.html
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Offline 71hotrodpinto

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 02:50:26 AM »
Be careful, the sad thing is that the 71pinto front end is different in every way from the 74 and up (which is what all aftermarket street rod stuff is based on) except the shock. Every piece is slightly different. The spindles are shorter in height, the bushings are different dia, the control arms have a smaller mounting pattern and are shorter etc etc. The list goes on.
 Us 71 owners are pretty much left out in the cold on most everything except the shocks and the wilwood style brake setups (5 lug only!)
 Ive heard that some have pulled out the entire front crossmember from a later model and then its game on. Man thats a lot of work though! its almost easier to put a 71 style front end on a 74! LOL but i must digress..
 


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'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
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Offline fast64ranchero

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 08:41:27 AM »
Nice looking car! as said above I'd steer clear of the C-4 for daily driving at those speeds, unless your ready to run a Freeway Friendly gear, which will kill your 1/4 ET's, the AOD will require Firewall mods to clear the bellhousing, I'm building a A4LD for my 72 right now, it smaller and should fit without firewall mods (I hope) the A4LD is basicaly the same trans as was used all the way up to 2010 in the Mustang GT's (5R55) with overdrive and convertor lock up.   when you figure out what tranny your going to use, you'll beable to figure out a street/strip gear, and the sway bar will help on the street but kill weight transfer on the track...
Your really going to have your work cut out for you to get 400hp out of a N/A 3.8,  300 ya, 400 not so easy, even at 300 crank hp, a small shot of giggle juice will make it run in the 10's if set up right.
Walt
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72 Treasure Valley Special 26K miles pinto
72 old V-8 parts Pinto
73 pinto, the nice one...

Offline tintmaster

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 05:10:26 PM »
Well, decided to do either a 302 or 351W. Someone told me that a 302 block won't go passed 500 horses. I want to do the 302 just cause its easier. Making custom over frame headers, as inner fender wells are all cut up from the 351C in it before I got it. Still going to use nitrous when needed. Was thinking of redoing tunnel anyway. So I think I will go with the AOD. Does anyone know if you can put a C4 bell housing on it? Or is the bell housing about the same size, just trans is bigger?
C. Eugene Brown

Offline tintmaster

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 07:48:12 PM »
Also was wondering if the Mustang ll suspension will work to switch to disc brakes. The car already has 5 lug drums on front. Not sure what they came from. Any way of being able to ID the front drums? Maybe I can find the disc for it.
C. Eugene Brown

Offline 71HANTO

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 08:33:32 PM »
Well, decided to do either a 302 or 351W. Someone told me that a 302 block won't go passed 500 horses. I want to do the 302 just cause its easier. Making custom over frame headers, as inner fender wells are all cut up from the 351C in it before I got it. Still going to use nitrous when needed. Was thinking of redoing tunnel anyway. So I think I will go with the AOD. Does anyone know if you can put a C4 bell housing on it? Or is the bell housing about the same size, just trans is bigger?

The bell bolt pattern for a 302, 351W, and 351C are the same (the 351M is not). The C4 was used on the 302 so it should work but I'm not sure of the sizes of the input shafts for the trans (needs more research). I like the 351W best of the 3 because it is not much more to rebuild than the 302 and has many "stroker" kits to choose from. Plus stock it makes 100 ft Lbs more than the 302 for the same given cam shaft. I put a small block C6 from a 72 351C behind my 69 Mustang 351W. A well built stock stroke 351W should put out around 550HP on the bottle...
 
71HANTO
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Offline 71hotrodpinto

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 08:59:40 PM »
5 lug drums? well i could be redrilled stock ones? I mean if someone was going to put on new brakes so that they could change the lug pattern why would anyone keep drums?
 Could you take some clean pics of your front suspension?
Sorry bout the idea of the 3.8 going in the trash. It sounded cool. Its just that any engine swap in these cars is a big tado! The 302/351  and the 2.3 turbo are the easiest and what most everyone does. Ford swaps that is. Unless you completely tube frame the thing, then anything is easy at that point.


As far as 302/351 id go stroker 302 block 331. The engine will always be lighter than the 351 by about 50lbs.
 In a front heavy car like ours that means alot. However, if your really serious about HP then yah the 351 will hold more power and you can then stroke to 408 easily. 600+hp anyone?

[/size]HP ratings are RPM and tune related especially with Nitrous . Also how long do you plan to hold it at 6500 making 550HP? If your like most of us probably not long. The engine build and tune is actually more important. The fact is YES the 302 stock  block WILL split if really pushed into the 550 hp range for too long and too often. However there are plenty of people "out on the net"  "that say" their 5.0 pushes 500 to the wheels on a turbo/supercharger/nitrous whatever and has never had a problem Or has done it for "over 150 passes before it split"

[/size]
So IMO id stay wit the smaller because its lighter and you can "move up" later if you really decide that its not enough!

[/size]


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B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
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Offline Srt

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 12:36:51 AM »
... and the sway bar will help on the street but kill weight transfer on the track...

why would it kill weight transfer?
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Offline 71hotrodpinto

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 09:09:52 PM »

why would it kill weight transfer?
because it limits the front suspension travel. The car launches, the front end starts to extend transferring the weight to the rear thus adding traction, then the sway bar runs out of 'travel' and limits the suspension extension. That suddenly adds weight to the front end and then effectively "yanks" the car back down.
 This is assuming that you have any traction to begin with. A street tire car such like mine would probably blow the tires off without even trying to lift the car to the limits.
 However  time and time again its been proven to help lower ET's on most all vehicles   


95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
Mil

Offline Srt

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2012, 03:05:08 AM »
because it limits the front suspension travel. The car launches, the front end starts to extend transferring the weight to the rear thus adding traction, then the sway bar runs out of 'travel' and limits the suspension extension. That suddenly adds weight to the front end and then effectively "yanks" the car back down.
 This is assuming that you have any traction to begin with. A street tire car such like mine would probably blow the tires off without even trying to lift the car to the limits.
 However  time and time again its been proven to help lower ET's on most all vehicles

The anti-swaybar is engineered to limit weight transfer from side to side throughout the entire range of vertical motion.
 
I think that the upper limit of vertical suspension travel on a Pinto will be reached before the anti-sway bar inhibits any detrimental effects on weight transfer, front-to-rear (in straight line racing) and traction.
 
IMHO.
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Offline fast64ranchero

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2012, 09:41:21 AM »
Sorry, but your wrong, you'll never see a drag car with a sway bar on the front, even the factoy understands this, look at a new Jeep, you can get them with factory sway bar disconnects, for Better suspension travel and articulation.  the cure is to either not run one, or disconnect one side at the track, allowing full travel.


The anti-swaybar is engineered to limit weight transfer from side to side throughout the entire range of vertical motion.
 
I think that the upper limit of vertical suspension travel on a Pinto will be reached before the anti-sway bar inhibits any detrimental effects on weight transfer, front-to-rear (in straight line racing) and traction.
 
IMHO.
71 Pro-Street pinto 2.3T powered
72 Treasure Valley Special 26K miles pinto
72 old V-8 parts Pinto
73 pinto, the nice one...

Offline slowride

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 12:58:45 PM »

The anti-swaybar is engineered to limit weight transfer from side to side throughout the entire range of vertical motion.
 
I think that the upper limit of vertical suspension travel on a Pinto will be reached before the anti-sway bar inhibits any detrimental effects on weight transfer, front-to-rear (in straight line racing) and traction.
 
IMHO.
To understand why removing/disconnecting the bar works, you need to look at how the suspension actually works. Lower control arms don't move up and down, they pivot in an arc. At the extremes of travel, this creates a bind in the bar links that limit the natural movement. While it may not SEEM like much, this is the point where maximum weight distribution is achieved. Just an additional inch or two of travel can help plant the tires harder.

Offline Srt

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2012, 02:53:21 AM »
You guys have valid points. I'm still listening...
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Offline tintmaster

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2012, 09:37:23 PM »
Ok, an update of whats going to happen.

I am going with a DSS 302 Level 10 block, 331 stroker kit to start with. I will be going slow, as I am broke as a joke. Then they have a new set of heads, forgot which 1's he said. But he just dyno'd  the 331 with a 750 Holley at 447HP! It will have all ARP bolts and studs, main cap girdle and windage tray to keep the mains from "WALKING" as it is referred to. DSS has 302 motor with this setup running over 650HP!!!! They are great guys, and will help you out. Even when I don't know a lot about a Ford motor. My 1st build.

Then for the trans, I have a buddy here in town that is a Ford nut and owns a transmission shop. He is going to build me an AOD. Going to have a converter custom made by Chance Transmissions to handle the 200HP shot of NOS!!!

Still trying to figure out what gear to go with in the pumpkin. Getting rid of the fool spool and 5.56 gears.
C. Eugene Brown

Offline 71hotrodpinto

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2012, 09:50:01 PM »
Wow yahooo!
 That sounds like a fun build!
Heard good and bad ( like everything these days on the internet) about DSS. Mostly good. They really cant guarantee that your particular setup they sell you will live with 650hp, but 450 should be no problem. Remember its about the tune, balance, and RPM your planning on running as to how much HP these blocks can handle.
 
SO i guess you kinda gave up on the Gas Mileage idea? LOL.  I did too! I cant imagine your going to pull more than 12mpg with a perfectly tuned 750.
 Make it what i should be,(IMO) a FUN car!


 YOU are going to need some good headers for the car now! Id lean towards the Hooker super comp fender-well style. They are a hassle, but for horse power id give them the nod.
Good luck and keep us informed!
Robert






 



95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
Mil

Offline racer99

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2012, 10:29:24 PM »
Good luck finding a 33 spline carrier.
Most are 28 or 31,might have to get some axles also.

Offline tintmaster

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2012, 10:52:43 PM »
Yeah, my 4 door 90 olds cutlass gets 15 MPG, so 12 wouldn't be to bad. Forgot to mention, the converter will be around 2800-3000 stall.

I am expecting 400 HP on the motor. Will start out with just 100 shot to get used to it. But only at the track, and not till the motor is broke in.

I will be having Holzman Race Cars making custom fender headers. I have had that planned from the beginning. I want the exhaust to run on the outside of frame and turn out in front of rear tires. Thinking of using oval tubing (http://www.spintechmufflers.com/oval-round-tubing/oval-tubing/cat_41.html?ccUser=9qjas6961dit38smi4tngf4i86 or  http://www.burnsstainless.com/304ovalsstubing.aspx) to tuck up a little closer to body. Definitely using Flowmaster 1 chamber racing muffler! Had them on my '74 GTO and love the sound. Nice little rumble just cruising around, but when you mash the throttle, all hell breaks loose.
C. Eugene Brown

Offline tintmaster

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2012, 10:57:14 PM »
Yeah I know. Will probably get new axles with 31 spline. I don't know if my axles can be re-cut or not. 1 axle it 17" long and the other is 11" long.
C. Eugene Brown

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2012, 10:34:05 AM »
Dont cut your current axles,keep the axles and the center section all together as
a set.New axles will be 300.00 or so and you can pick up a 9 in center section
cheap enough.
Trust me on this,there will come a time you will get a wild hair and wish you had
kept the takeout stuff all together.

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Re: 71 Pinto project, need help!!
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2012, 03:06:54 PM »
Ya, thought of that. Thinking of getting a stronger case for the spool and 33 spline axles for the track. Then use the case for a 31 spline posi and new axles.

There are so many posi units, trying to figure which 1 to get. Looking at the Detroit Trutrac from Moser. I don't want clutches that can burn up or slip.

Thanks Robert for the info.
C. Eugene Brown