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Offline PonyRider62

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5 Speed Transmission
« on: February 14, 2019, 01:24:50 PM »
Hi All!  I Have A 1973 Pinto Wagon With A 2.0 Engine And A 4 Speed Transmission

What 5 Speed Transmission Would Bolt In?
Save The Ponies!

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2019, 08:36:29 PM »
I think a merkur 5 speed.. 

Its a FoG 4 speed with an additional gearset  bolted onto the rear like an overdrive..

Pretty common in europe but rare here..
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2019, 11:04:52 AM »
And they're rare in the U.S. because they only came in the '83-89 Merkur XR4Ti, of which the youngest is now 30 years old. Their 5-speed is referred to as the T9. They are still out there, but you might have to shop around. AFAIK it's a drop-in replacement for the Pinto 4-speed. Since the Merk made 2x the power and 3x the torque, it should last practically forever behind a stock 2.0.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2019, 11:45:18 AM »
The T-5 is an option. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the 2.3 bellhousing will bolt to the 2.0 block as it has secondary mounting holes to do so. You would need a pre-87 bellhousing. I used the 86 bellcrank bellhousing on my 2.3/T-5 swap. The other questions then become does the pilot bearing fit the input shaft, the splines fit the clutch disc and the starter bolt in without issues???

Note that some have used the T-5 but the consensus is varied. Some find it OK while others say the slightest incline (or head wind) force you out of 5th gear.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2019, 08:26:37 PM »
The T-5 is an option. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the 2.3 bellhousing will bolt to the 2.0 block as it has secondary mounting holes to do so.
It's the other way around; a 2.3 block has both 2.0 and 2.3 bellhousing patterns. Only the lower four bolt holes of a 2.3 T5 bellhousing will align on a 2.0 block though.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
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Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2019, 10:09:11 PM »
Also.. have you done any mods to the engine.. are you sure the 2.0 will have the torque to pull the taller ratio in 5th gear..

How many revs is your engine turning at highway speed and do you have a high rev cam installed?

The stock 2.0 cam was retarded to raise the power curve. The specs rate the max torque at 3000 rpm and max power at 5800

The result is that the power curve usually starts at about 3000 to 3100 about 60 mph in 4th gear

 But the stock weber 2 bbl usually wont feed the engine much over 4500 rpm so the power curve is only about 1500 rpm

The result is that power curve comes in too high to pull 4 th gear below about 60 mph so except for  flat land cruising the higher ratio of the 5 speed probably wont be useful

I had a 72 wagon and had to downshift for hills

I now have a 73 with 14" wheels, installed an adjustable cam pulley and advanced the cam about 6 degrees. That moved the power curve down about 600 rpm so the cam srts working about 2400.

A carb upgrade allows for 6000 rpm but I shift around 5500

With 14 inch tires 3.40 rear end i now cruise easily at 3000 rpm at 70 mph and can loaf around town at 40 mph at 1800 rpm in 4th gear

I have considered a 5 speed but am not sure if the engine could pull 70 mph at 2600

Switching to 14 inch tires and rims is a much cheeper and easier solution since it provides the equivalent to a 10 per cent over drive. And the cam advance and a ford 2bbl will cure the carb and torque curve problem
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2019, 11:01:41 PM »
Wikilinks indicates that the t9 was also usedin the 1.6 and 2.0 l capri????

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Type_9_transmission

But i think the article was wrong and the 2.0 only had a 4 speed and the later capri had a 2.3

And there were several input shaft configurations

https://www.bearingkits.co.uk/How-to-tell-what-Ford-Type-9-gearbox-you-have/B19.htm

Also is the total length and shifter location the same as the 4 speed type e
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline PonyRider62

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2019, 12:20:13 PM »
Thanks For The Input Guys!
I Just Got This Car For Christmas.....
Don't Know Much About It, Engine Maybe Modified But Not Sure, Has Headers And Runs Ok.
Been 30-35 Years Since I Had A Pinto.... Trying To Remember What I Knew About Them
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2019, 01:31:21 PM »
In order to bolt a 2.3 bell housing to a 2.0 block you will need a set of step dowels made or buy a set from Paul on Turboford. You will need them for proper Bell alignment if you use a T5 trans! Also I would recommend changing your rear diff gear to a min. of 3.40 final drive. The T5 uses a 10 spline input so you would have to use a small diameter 10 spline clutch disc.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2019, 02:06:13 PM »
I'll add a +1 for the 3.40 gears assuming tire roughly the stock size of 13". When I went with a Turbo 2.3 I got a 3.00 8" rear end. Ironically even with 215-60-14" tires it wasn't so much that the car bogged (on acceleration under boost), in fact I liked the long-er pulls under boost. It was just that at every legally posted speed limit the 5 speed gears were either too low or the adjacent gear too high. Thus everyday driving was rather unpleasant. With the 3.40 and 175-70-13 tires the car at 65 MPH is about 2,600 RPM in 5th gear. At other (lower) legal posted speeds the RPMs are much more appropriate too.

I know we are talking rear and trans ratios here but if you have rather tall tires 3.55 might be applicable. Remember that it is the tire size, not necessarily the wheel size that matters. You can have a 185-80-13 tire and it will have a similar height to a 225 40-17 tire. The tire size it every bit as much a factor as the gear ratios.  This can be helpful.   https://tiresize.com/calculator/  There are many gear ratio calculators out there too. Just do a search. Having the wrong combination of tires, rear gears, transmission gears does not make a 5 speed trans "better" to have.

Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2019, 04:04:03 AM »
On my current set I have 3.55 in the rear. I had 14'' all around until I got a set of 15'' wheels. I never had a problem out  of bog on acceleration even when I ran a stock ECU. With the turbo I always had over kill of power and torque. My Pinto is a 72 hatch. I tried Many different rear ratio's I found the stock ratio Ford used on the Thunderbird worked best for a street app. Also there are different T5s not all are the same. The more torque and hp you have the less dependent you are on gear. But all said and done the T9 is the easiest to install  almost bolt on lol but you would still need to change the rear gear ratio. You get the right gear ant tire combo that car should be a blast to drive around town and a dream on the interstate. Just like any modern car and you may see a noticeable change in fuel economy.
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Offline PonyRider62

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 02:29:32 AM »
Thanks Guys!
I'll Have To Wait Till Summer To Do Anything With The Motor And Trans......... .........So Broke
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Offline PintoMan1

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2019, 02:34:37 PM »

if  I may be so bold as to jump in here and ask a few silly questions. form what I am reading here and other posts on this subject. a great help by the way!! that the t9 is a bolt in application? is there any mods. needed to install? such as the drive shaft length? pilot bearing, clutch, and pressure plate? and the bell housing? the speedometer mount/location? I only ask these things, because I have never seen one to know the differences if any. please anyone in lighten me!!


thanks. Glen
1973 pinto runabout

Offline PintoMan1

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2019, 03:19:21 PM »
sorry, I forgot one more thing. will the shifter from the 4sp work with the t9 5sp?
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2019, 06:49:45 AM »
It depends on which Pinto 4 speed you have!
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2019, 09:44:54 AM »
I am pretty sure that if your Pinto shifter is held in place on the trans by 3 bolts it will work.
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Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2019, 12:15:36 PM »
If you are serious about the t9 and have the money ( about $700 for a rebuildable core and $500 for an overhaul) contact they guys at

https://www.taylor-race.com in plano TX

They build early pinto type transmissions for race cars and later merkur transmissions.

Their typical price for a ready to go bolt in is about $2000 and they build full on racing dog boxes as well.

They are extermely knowledeable, have all the replacement parts and are willing to give advice but try not to pester them with non relavelent stuff so as to spoil their good nature..

As for the length the t9 is just a type e 4 speed with a redesigned tailshaft to allow for essentially an overdrive gear ro be added between the main case  and the tailshaft and I think the tailshaft was shortened to keep the overall length the same.

As far as the shifter all the 71-73 transmissions were mounted with a large screw in nylon bushing.  74 and up pinto and mustang used the bolte on type.

But again from experience.. I dont think a stock 2.0 with the factory cam timing and weber carb will pull 5th gear on more than a level or downhill stretch because factory motors were intended to run at 3000 rpm cruise.

 The factory specs rate max torque at 3000 rpm, max power at 5800. They were not designed to cruise at 2000 rpm like a V8. My car runs at 3000 rpm at 70 mph and about 2400 at 50 well below the factory power range. I installed an adjustable cam pully to allow 6 degrees advance and upgraded the carburetor so my power starts at about 2400.

.and if you put a "high performance cam" that moves the power curve up so you will decrease the low end torque so most of the time you cant even use 5th gear..

Best solution advance the cam, replace the screwed up weber 24/32 carb switch to 205 14 tires and cruise at 70 mph at 3000 where the motor was designed to run...
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2019, 01:48:44 PM »
Afterthought

5 speeds are mostly used in race cars with low rear end ratios for quick low speed accelleration while 5th gear allows for higher top speed and more ratios to choose from in between so the engine can be run in a narrower power band and in street cars with high torque v8 or v6 with engine managament systems to keep engine revs low for economy.

I built mgb cars for awhile and they had 3.90 rear ratios. And 14 inch tires, 4 speeds trans with overdrives. Made power from 2500 to about 5800.  The overdrive was available in 2nd 3rd and 4th gear. Some racers used them as intermediate ratios between gears.

The rear ratio was good for quick starts and the overdrive allowed high speed cruise.

  In typical street driving i would get the car up to about 65 mph 3500 rpm 4th gear.  Engage the OD, revs dropped to about 3000.

BUT that was on level ground.. on hills had to switch off OD and pull hills at 3500.

Most early pintos had 3.40 gears and 13 " tires.. 3000 rpm at 65 mph

Add 14" tires.. like 10 percent OD and you come out to 3000 at 70 mph.. the pinto has a little more torque then the mgb so it can handle 4th gear

Later model V6 and V8 cars have engine management systems to adjust fuel.and ign toming to allow higher ratios for cruising and fuel savings.

Older mechanically tuned cars would probably use more fuel with the engine bogging below the optimum 3000 rpm cruise except at extremely low loads..

Basic rule.. it takes fuel to move a car down the road.

Best uel mileage is obtained when engine is run at best efficiency.

Running an engine at a speed lower than max effiency will probably use more fuel.

You probably wont get better mileage with a 5 speed.unless.y ou optomise the engine with a lower power curve and you will probably  get more bang from your buck with

an adjustable cam pulley from Racer Walsh and advance the cam a few degrees,

limit the distributor advance to about 14 degrees, set inital timing to 14 btdc for total advance of 28 degrees,( I posted and article here about how Idid mine, just replace one of the distributor springs with a loop of wire)

remove vacuum advance

Install a linkage kit on your weber 2bbl to allow both sections to open simultaneously rather than progressive for better throttle response and

Switch to 205 14 tires and you will be amazed at how well the car runs.

And for a lot less money and hassel than tracking down a 5 speed.
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Offline PintoMan1

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2019, 12:37:02 PM »

ok, I was able to get a picture of one. there are some differences. first thing I see is that (your right) the shifter is held in with bolts, not screwed in like mine. the second thing is the location of the shifter. it is not in the same place as the 4sp trans I have. and third is the input shaft. the number of splines for the clutch, not the same. 


now for my next question. can the tail shaft from the pinto trans be swapped out and used on the gear box of the t9?


thanks, Glen
1973 pinto runabout

Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2019, 05:37:40 PM »
Shifter location depends on what vehicle the trans came out of. I think the Merkur  is close to the Pinto shifter location if not the same.
To answer your question. No!
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Offline PintoMan1

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2019, 06:08:35 PM »
the pictures of the one I seen are from a 88-89 t-bird.
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Offline PintoMan1

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2019, 07:19:11 PM »
I was just told that the trans I have pictures of from the t-bird had a hydraulic clutch set up on this t9. do all t9 transmissions have a hydraulic set up including the merkur trans? I would like to keep it cable if possible. but if I had to go with a slave cylinder would I have to get it from the same car?
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2019, 10:47:53 PM »
You are looking at a T5
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2019, 08:26:32 AM »
Clarify which transmission would you like to talk about T5 or T9? I do believe your facts are muddled.  Or do you want to see if I know what I am talking about?
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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2019, 10:45:09 AM »
according to the man I was in contact with says it is a t9. but if you say the shifter location on a t9 is the same as a pinto. then the trans he sent a picture of cant be right. the shifter location is and looks to me like it would be a t5. it is set forward a little bit and the shifter is bolted in. I wish I could post pictures but I'm not sure if I can. always tells me that the are to big. I'll try
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Offline PintoMan1

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2019, 11:04:12 AM »
I hope this worked. this is the picture of the trans (t9) he sent me.
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2019, 07:45:14 PM »
Again you are looking at a T5!
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2019, 12:34:02 PM »
Usually there is a tag on the transmission stating what it is. In the Ford realm there are basically three T-5's most commonly denoted by their 1st gear ratio.

1. The 2.3 version had roughly a 4.00 1st gear (some say 3.96 others 4.03) I'll average it to 4.00. It has a longer input shaft length.

2. The Mustang V-8 version had a 3.35 1st gear ratio. It has a shorter input shaft length.

3. The aftermarket (Ford Motorsports) version had a 2.95 1st gear ratio. The input shaft should be the same as the Mustang V-8 version.

There are other T-5's, The Chevette, the Camaro/Firebird with tilted case, the Datsun and I believe a few others. Some T-5's were world class (stronger) and others not. Even in the Ford use they were different in lengths, input shaft length and varying strengths. There were even a few (at least one) different ratios from what I have stated.

If the transmission in the picture is the Mustang V-8 version I recall there being a special pilot bearing that compensates for the shorter input shaft length. What the input shaft splines are and what disc fits that and the 2.3 flywheel size, someone else will have to provide that.  However, a 3.35 1st gear ratio is likely not too conducive to the 2.0 given the 2.3 (for the most part) used 4.00 1st gear.


 If if using the 2.3 version (4.00 1st gear in my case from a T/C) as far as mounting goes I was able to just reverse the transmission crossmember and then slot the holes to support the trans using the stock Pinto mount (round hockey puck style). The transmission opening (for the shift lever) only needs to be move forward about 2". Note that in the Pinto I modified the T/C shift lever (shorter/back further) because I was punching the dashboard in 1st, 3rd and 5th gears. It will be different for everyone's size but it was a lot of trial and error to get the lever so it felt right. Few have ever used the hydraulic system similar to the 87-88 T/C but most use the earlier "Bellcrank" bellhousing with a cable. This necessitates elevating the cable over the crossmember.  I'll post a few pictures.

Offline LongTimeFordMan

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2019, 03:39:57 PM »
The t9 was only fitted to merkurs in america but were fitted to other ford products in england and europe that used the 2.0 sohc engine.. like the sierra

No other american ford used the t9

A t5 will not fit into an early pinto without major mods to the pinto.

The t9 had a flat stamped steel top cover like the factory Type E FoG 4 speed..

The t9 was essentially a FoG 4 speed with an additional section added between the  main case and shorted tail shaft.

Read this article..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Type_9_transmission

 btw.. the 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 engines are variations of the original german 2.0 used in european ford products, not the kent or later 2.3 lima engines..

T9s are extremely rare and sell for upwards of $700 in rebuildable core condition if you can find one..
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

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Re: 5 Speed Transmission
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2019, 06:19:24 PM »
I'm not sure what it takes to adapt a T-5 to a 2.0 engine. However, I did put a T-5 in my early (1973) Pinto wagon when I went to a 2.3 Turbo motor. Virtually everything I did, I did with an angle grinder, a file and a drill. From my perspective it wasn't complicated.


1. I used an angle grinder to cut the shifter opening in the transmission tunnel forward about 2"-3". This took about a minute.


2. I used a file to lengthen the slots in the transmission crossmember. In retrospect (knowing what I know now) I would probably just drill holes as far back as possible. This took about 5 minutes.


3. As mentioned above I simply reversed the crossmember and used the C-4 transmission mount that came with the car. This took no extra time.


4. As mentioned above I used a small piece of steel plate to elevate the clutch cable over the front suspension crossmember. This was simply a drill bit for the two holes and an angle grinder to cut the steel to size. I did weld on an anti rotate tab (in case it ever came loose) but that wasn't absolutely necessary. This took about 30 minutes. Note my pictures show I slotted the crossmembner holes..., but I found that was unnecessary.


5. As mentioned above I cut a piece of steel with an angle grinder to move my shifter rearward.  I also cut the lever, shortened it and reconfigured  its shape. This I did use a MIG welder for and many may not have that tool. Depending on an individuals idea of proper position and comfort this may or may not be necessary. In my case it took about an hour. It is the one thing in the process that wasn't inexpensive, but only because someone who didn't have a weld would either have to pay someone, or buy one. In my case I had my welder for years.


6. Not mentioned above is I went from a C-4 Automatic / 6-3/4" rear to a T-5 / 8" rear. The original driveshaft fit perfectly without alteration!


So, from my perspective the T-5 adaptation (to a 2.3 in an early '73 Pinto) was rather easy. Again, I never adapted a T-5 to a 2.0 and the inputs shaft length, the proper disc, pressure plate, fork, throwout bearing, pilot bearing, driveshaft alterations etc. might be a far more entailed process. To be honest the driveshaft fitment came as a pleasant surprise. The 8" rear did cost me $115 but I'd rather have the strength of that than to have kept the 6-3/4" and paid a similar amount to have the driveshaft altered.


A few more pictures (clutch cable elevation plate and transmission mount pieces).