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Offline pintoguy76

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5.0 VS 2.3T
« on: May 14, 2013, 08:03:47 PM »
I have a question up for debate. I have a Speed Density EFI 5.0 with wiring harness from my 87 F150 (I am putting a 351W in the F150, so the engine needs a new home) and also a 2.3 turbo from an 87 Turbocoupe. I pretty much have everything for the 2.3T swap (car is already a 2.3, have the engine, wiring harness computer, vam, etc), and i dont have anything but the engine for the V8 swap.


But the V8 would be fun too. Which one is really better? Logically the 2.3T makes better sense to me but I am wanting the V8 also. (Perhaps I need a 2nd pinto again lol).


The V8 will cost probably $1,000 more to swap in  (for the mounts, headers, and oil pan/pickup tube which are all hard to find and worth their weight in gold) and probably wont be as fast or street friendly (due to traction issues, etc), plus will use more gas and i wont be able to have all the ammenities id like to have, plus I dont have  as much stuff for it either.


However the 2.3T EFI has its own cons. I believe it is similar to a speed density setup and the stock fuel injection is only good for a certain amount of power before it stops working correctly. Then you get into using megasquirt or other aftermarket fuel injection and i am not sure i am up to that.


That really probably doesn't matter because I don't really plan to go all out in this car power wise, it is to be a daily driven street car, I want to fix it up, make it a nice pleasant daily driver, with good gas mileage, AC, cruise, etc. So it needs to be a nice, clean install, very street friendly, pump gas, decently handling, etc.  (Kinda like my restored Volvo 265 with a 4.3 Chevy and 700r4 trans in it). I do want to be able to kick some butt with it occasionally (also like the Volvo  ;D [size=78%]),[/size][size=78%] [/size]but I dont have to be able take it to the strip and run 9's in the quarter mile with it either.


So anyways I dunno what to do.


BTW both engines are apart and in pieces right now, the 2.3T probably needs more work now than the V8 tho they both need work but both did run when removed from the vehicles they came from.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed
 
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Offline beaner

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Re: 5.0 VS 2.3T
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 08:20:24 PM »
 it is to be a daily driven street car, I want to fix it up, make it a nice pleasant daily driver, with good gas mileage, AC, cruise, etc. So it needs to be a nice, clean install, very street friendly, pump gas, decently handling, etc.
 
that screems 2.3 turbo to me
 
brad :)

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: 5.0 VS 2.3T
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 08:26:59 PM »
I tried to drive my '79 351W powered Pinto almost daily for a month. I finally got disgusted & sold it to buy a 2.3 powered wagon. The wagon will get a turbo in a couple years & still be driven daily.
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Offline D.R.Ball

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Re: 5.0 VS 2.3T
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 11:37:28 PM »
The turbo is the cheapest and the easiest swap to do, if you have a 2.3.

Offline OhSix9

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Re: 5.0 VS 2.3T
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 01:27:22 AM »
300 hp takes 300 hp worth of gas turbo 4'd or v8'd the v8 is low end and torquey while the turbo likes to spin. At that point gears and tranny will determine mpg.

Speed density is a perfectly acceptable engine management solution it just doesn't respond well to changes in volumetric efficiency within the pump ( cams, headers, intakes etc) without adjustments to the tables. headers to make it all fit probably won't screw up the tuning too badly unless you cam it up and make compression changes etc along the way in which case a custom tune would be needed.  Your turbo 4, on the plus side you have the good heads and it's probably not cracked. it also has the best ecu available for doing the swap.

transmission if it's a 5 spd you need an earlier bellhousing thats not hydraulic if you want to go auto get an a4ld built with 4l explorer parts and a witches brew of 4r44 parts that make it indestructible .

 the vam on a turbo 4 is more like maf in it meters the air going into the system only in a rudementary manner with a barn door and rheostat vs the heated wire of a maf. Injectors for the t4 cars are low impedance 35#'ers  so you can run them at 100% duty cycle with no major fall off in efficency so they are more like 45lb high impedence injectors. 300 horses on stock injectors is doable.  The stock eec iv has more power and features available than any aftermarket injection system if you learn how to get into it a little. , the biggest restriction is the factory vam which has a rather low cfm rating and tends to max out to early when sucked on by big turbos leaving the thing running on the maps vs actually metering air. . either way v8 or t4 you can get a j3 adapter from moates and write your own tune to suit your needs. You can set it up with the vam go with a maf meter (mines set up with a 70mm maf from a lincoln) or switch the system to sd and use a 3 bar gm map sensor eliminating anything but an airfilter on the front of the turbo. (you can vent your bov straight to atmosphere using sd vs recircing it like maf and vam require. ) go up to 70lb injectors, adjust rev limits and timing etc etc etc. all in all if your car is already 2.3 powered its just a few wires, put a new fuse(headgasket) in the motor and away you go. if you want to make big power get a boport job on the head and add a roller cam. either way unless you are doing a stock swap tuning will be in order. it is up to you to diy or farm it out. if you are a diy'r you can get a better tune on the street with a data logger and wideband o2 sensor than most guys can do on a dyno.  the v8 takes a bigger shoehorn but you can get an aftermarket pan and pickup to make things easier. Aside from the time investment the parts to get into and modify factory tuning costs less than 75 bucks.
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Offline Pinturbo75

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Re: 5.0 VS 2.3T
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 10:02:28 AM »
im getting 27 mpg cruising 75 on the highway.....
75 turbo pinto trunk, megasquirt2, 133lb injectors, bv head, precision 6265 turbo, 3" exhaust,bobs log, 8.8, t5,, subframe connectors, 65 mm tb, frontmount ic, traction bars, 255 lph walbro,
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Offline pintoguy76

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Re: 5.0 VS 2.3T
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 07:18:55 PM »
Sounds like I need to either sell my 5.0 with SD wiring and computer, or buy another pinto so I have a car for each one :D Having both would be more fun, but really I think the 2.3T makes better sense. My car is a 74 4-speed with a 3.00 8" rear and will probably keep the 4 speed for now, but it will get a T-5 eventually.  The T-5 has more performance oriented gearing plus the overdrive for mileage that the old 4 speed just doesn't have.

Id like to hear more about converting from VAM to MAF.... I am going MAF from SD on the F150 but its taking a whole new wiring harness from a 95 F150 to do it. Since thats not available on the 2.3T, id assume there is tuning and wiring work to do. No biggie. I mean I am afterall swapping EFI in two vehicles already...
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed
 
1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

Offline OhSix9

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Re: 5.0 VS 2.3T
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 08:37:47 PM »
The switch to maf is actually quite easy, you need to grab a maf sensor that is in common use and has a known transfer table you can copy and paste into the tune. wiring consists of using the wires that run to the vam and stealing 12v power from the bcs wiring (which is not needed when you toss it away for a manual boost controller). you need to gut the temp sensor out of the vam as it has a different  transfer curve than the usual iat sensors that ford uses on other units. ( some have had success rewriting the transfer function for this as well and using the common sensor instead of doing surgery on the old or spare vam.  the programming consists of using the right maf files from rothfam.  load the file and start by selecting maf from the dropdown. inputting the info for the maf transfer using software called binary editor and flash the tune to the j3 device. (it piggybacks on the ecu like old style "chips") from there you typically want to use a wideband 02 sensor with 3 channel datalogging to capture rpm tps and maf voltage.. then it takes some deductive reasoning to select useful data which will assist in tweeking the maf transfer as they change slightly depending on intake routing. here is some learning for ya. www.moates.net  you will need a j3 adapter and the jaybird. optionally you could use their quarterhorse it has datalogging features (and it won't datalog the p series I am using...pos) but does not support wideband 02 so  something like this is best   http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php   then head off to  http://www.rothfam.com/svo/index.asp  and spend a day reading his maf tuning project.  on the injector front you can step up to 56#'ers if you can find a couple cfi ho 5.0's as they use a pair of low impedance 56'ers on the tbi, rob two to get 4.    Find yourself a t9 from a merkur, it is the exact same tranny as yours with od and literally falls in the hole with no modifications. unfortunately in the t5's they used the same ratios in na and turbo 4 cyl apps and first is way to short to make up for the na lack of power.  if you end up building a trans I would suggest doing so with the v8 ratios to make 1st more usable. I currently have the base tune written and am progressing to the active tuning stage but a pretty serious bike accident last fall seriously slowed this winters progress so more wrench must be turned before it gets back on the street, when completed I will post a maf file for use on p series ecu's for all to swipe.
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

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Offline half pint

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Re: Re: 5.0 VS 2.3T
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2013, 01:33:15 PM »
300 hp takes 300 hp worth of gas turbo 4'd or v8'd.

Um, no.  That's basically saying a 73 400 with 185 hp would get better fuel mileage than a modern 5.4 with over 300 hp. Some engines make power more efficiently than others.  That turbo 4 would be more efficient than that 302, any day...but the 302 would sound better, have more low end and probably be more fun for gnarly displays of power...lol

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