PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: Chopchop on January 13, 2014, 08:16:13 AM
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Hi
My name is Dave. I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I'm hoping (praying) that someone here will be able to help me with this because I'm losing what little is left of my mind trying to figure it out.
First, I have a 76 Pinto with the 2.3 and I have a 1981-ish Shay Thunderbird (factory built 1955 T-Bird replica sold new through the Ford dealers) with a 2.3 / 4 speed.
Right now I'm focusing on the 1981 2.3 but the 1976 2.3 appears to have the same problem.
The Problem:
Neither of these engines will start when it's wet / damp outside. They will fire first time, every time when the weather is hot or cold or anything other than when it's wet. If the engine's been running for a while and warmed up, both engines will fire up without issue.
Last week it was in the minus temperatures and both cars fired right up. When the temperatures climbed to the high 30's and the weather turned wet, they would NOT start. I've consistently had this problem.
- Both cars have new batteries with very good cranking power, new coils and new -ignition modules.
- Both cars run like brand new when the weather isn't wet.
- My '81 2.3 is bone dry under the hood but the '76 has a lot of under-hood condensation (despite being stored in a completely covered car port).
- When running, the spark on #1 cylinder is perfect.
- When cranking, I usually get one good spark on #1 cylinder as soon as I hit the key then after a 1/2 a second the spark turns either very weak or there's no spark at all. The same is true for #4 cylinder.
- I have electric fuel pumps on both cars and I can see and smell fuel at the carbs.
The weak or no spark problem seems to be ONLY when cranking.
- If I can get the engines to run, my in-line spark plug tester shows a GREAT looking spark on #1 cylinder.
I fully believe this is a spark/ignition problem and not a fuel problem and I am hoping someone here can help me out with this.
Also, both engines are extremely low mileage. The '76 has only 15K and the '81 has 25K -- they are both very original engines and in fact, the lowest mileage cars I've ever owned!
Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give me with this problem.
Thank you,
Dave
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Welcome to the site Dave! I had that very same problem before every time it rained or a damp day wouldn't start drove me nuts for a while, come to find out it was moisture in the cap, wiped it down with WD and end of problem, not saying that is your issue just my experience but might want to check for that the next time it don't want to start.
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Oh, I'd love it if it was an easy fix like that. :)
I'll pull everything apart, clean it and wipe everything down in hopes that your method will work for me.
Thank you very much for taking the time to try to help me out. I very much appreciate it and will post back here if I find anything interesting or suspect.
One other thing that I failed to mention - because I work alone, I'm using a remote start button to crank the engines and check for spark. I attach one lead to the starter solenoid and the other to the positive cable of the battery. I leave the ignition switch in the "run" position and stick my head under the hood before I hit the button. That's the only way I can check for spark.
I wonder if there is a circuit that is not completing because my method does not allow the ignition switch to turn to the "start" position?
Thanks again!
Dave
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No, all you do is crank the motor(bypassing key) that won't effect anything else, unless the battery is weak then it takes all the power to crank the motor and not have enough to feed the ignition, but you mentioned new batteries so that shouldn't be an issue. You might check the resistance in your plug wires too?..
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WELCOME Chopchop!
Dwayne :)
Like Art, my first thought was moisture in the distributor cap. Had a similar problem years ago. Hope your fix is that simple!
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I had a similar issue with mine. What happened was, as the temp dropped the PC board inside the ignition module would contract. There was a break in the board that would make contact when warmer (expanded), but would become an open circuit as the temp dropped. Replaced the module and life has been good......
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If the wd-40 does not work, check for spark at ignition coil if you have strong spark i would change the wires/rotor button/distributor cap.
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Look at the color of the spark when your cranking it over. If its more white than blue your coil it bad even though you get spark. The stock ignition is a very good one and needs nothing aftermarket added on to it. Stay Ford and you'll stay ok.
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Most likely ignition. Condensation in cap or humidity alone, you may not see it. Bad wires that jump outside thru insulation in humidity, they are old even if no mileage. Possible coil spark jumping at top tower.
Make sure dist rotor is bent up to positively contact the carbon in cap, make sure that carbon point is there and not broken. Clean rotor outside tip off of carbon to bare like new. Look for ANY cracks in cap or giveaway carbon tracking inside it. Pull plugs and look for tracking around the outsides of the porcelain, common to jump there and not internally like supposed to. Check for corrosion inside any plug wire snap-ons.
Coil if only slightly shorted internally can be slightly weak and just not start in your conditions but would be odd for two cars to do that exactly the same. Would be odd to be module as well but not impossible as noted here already. Pull module connector and check for corrosion there as well.
Battery connections can come in to play as well, humidity can sap power going across substandard connections. Will seem to start fine but the slight loss saps the amount the electronic ignition needs since the starter sucks up most of the current.
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Awesome, thanks for the great tips!
It was 20* outside, I went out and both cars fired right up like nobody's business.
I pulled the cap on the '81 - oddly, written on the outside of the cap in black magic marker was, "Must be grey in color."
Okay....
The cap looked fine and the inside was bone dry with no bad-looking stuff anywhere. I cleaned the contacts with a small wire brush, sprayed it down with WD-40, wiped it off and cleaned the rotor as well (it looked just fine).
I put the cap back on and it started with no issues which was no surprise because it's always started after it's warmed up.
I checked voltage at the coil and when running it was 8.94-ish.
I turned the car off, turned the ignition on and connected my remote start switch to the solenoid and the positive cable of the battery, hit the button and......no start. It'd crank just fine but it wouldn't start.
I hit the key and it fired right up.
I did this a few times and the engine won't start unless I use the key - except for one time.
Just when I let off the remote start button, it caught and fired up but somehow, somewhere, there's got to be a circuit that's completed when you crank the engine with the key that's NOT completed when you just put power to the solenoid.
So, at least I know that trying to start it with the remote start button connected the way it's connected isn't going to work for me.
Next question - where do I connect the remote start button's leads to allow me to start the car with the ignition switch in the "Run" position?
I think this will lead me to the problem. I think that whatever circuit is completed via the ignition switch being turned to the "Start/Crank" position isn't being completed when it's damp. I dunno why, I dunno how but I'm thinking that's where the issue lies.....
Also, I don't know if I mentioned it but the coils and ignition modules are new as well. I cleaned all leads and connectors before connecting them.
Thanks again for everybody's ideas here!
Dave
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Remote connects same way key on as not. I'd be looking at your remote switch or solenoid. Do you have TWO small wires coming off solenoid? One off each of two smaller terminals not counting the main battery ones. One you connect to with remote, that one powers the solenoid on, if remote not passing enough power because of internal resistance then solenoid may not be fully powered to carry 100% power ergo no spark. No burglar or alarm wiring on it is there?
Solenoid gets power through one small wire, the main contacts close to power starter through the big terminals, at same time the other smaller wire is powered up too to provide straight 12 volts to coil for starting only, it disconnects just like starter as soon as solenoid goes off. 12 volts at the coil starting only helps make up for the extra load of the starter dragging power down. Then it goes back to your 9 volts or so.
Check for solenoid grounded well to mounting point if that type, some have a third small wire that grounds elsewhere rather than through the solenoid case. When remote starting you ground that wire.
Your issue just described seems to point at the remote switch not passing full power. How many wires on solenoid not counting the two big ones? Look at the snap on clip interface with the remote, commonly too small to carry good power. Cheap $10 battery cables have the same problem, often they will not start a car even when new. Cable big enough but not enough 'bite' at the clamp-on to carry power.
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DING DING DING!! ;D
No sir, I do NOT have two small wires coming off the solenoid. {Kinda..}
I have two white/beige colored wires coming off the SAME terminal of the solenoid - they go into a wiring loom. That's the terminal I attach the remote start to.
The other wire from the remote start goes directly to the positive cable of the battery. When I hit the button, the engine cranks over like nobody's business.
That other small terminal on the solenoid has nothing going to it but a long time ago I noticed a single, unconnected wire sitting under the carb. I'll bet it would reach that other terminal....
I don't know where that wire goes - I assumed it had something to do with the choke or something on the carb --- there are a LOT of unconnected wires on this car!
Do you think I should stick that single wire on the solenoid and see what happens?
I'll take a picture today and post it so you can see. Thank you for this value tidbit of information!!
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This should explain the solenoid.
(http://www.mustangevolution.com/forum/attachments/56317d1340581640-ford-4-terminal-solenoid-wiring.jpg)
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Ah! It certainly does - thank you. I always wondered what that other terminal was for!
The '81 fired right up this morning (29 degrees outside).
Here are some pictures I just took of that engine :
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac9/Surfnut74/IMGP2590_zpsb4edc4f0.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/Surfnut74/media/IMGP2590_zpsb4edc4f0.jpg.html)
Here's that wire I mentioned earlier :
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac9/Surfnut74/IMGP2592_zpsdab394af.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/Surfnut74/media/IMGP2592_zpsdab394af.jpg.html)
And here's another angle (kind of hard to see in there):
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac9/Surfnut74/IMGP2593_zps75eef227.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/Surfnut74/media/IMGP2593_zps75eef227.jpg.html)
I checked with a test light and that second terminal does light up when the ignition is cranking.
That loose wire has no voltage coming from it. I wish I could trace it but that would require cutting into the loom and I'd like to stay away from that if possible.
What do you fellas think of me putting 12 volts to the wire and seeing if there's a change at the coil?
Thanks again!
Dave
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I would try routing the wire to the solenoid and see if it reaches. If it doesn't then you know it doesn't belong there.The problem with shooting 12 volts into that wire is you could burn something out not knowing what it's for. You don't have a sending unit anywhere close to that wire that doesn't have anything connected to it do you? Reading your post again I noticed you said there are a lot of loose wires hanging around. Is there an electric choke and does it have anything connected to it? If not that wire might be for the choke. You said there is no power coming from the wire, start the engine and see if you get any voltage from it.
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Could peel that tape back a bit and see what color the wire is and maybe trace it on a diagram, could for a sending unit or something????..
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I believe the wire will easily reach.
The automatic choke works very well so I don't think the wire goes there but I will dig in tomorrow and see if the wire reaches anywhere else.
I never got any voltage through the wire when I was checking yesterday and I had my neighbor use the key to crank the car today - that's how I was able to check the second terminal on the solenoid ; As it was cranking, the test light did come on nice and bright.
The loose wire showed no voltage while the engine was running or when the engine was off.
At no time have I seen voltage through the loose wire.
I'll check tomorrow for other places it might go to.
Thank you.
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If it goes to coil you will find the opposite end on the + side of coil. Wire color should be the same IIRC. If other end was at coil + you'd have volts in it at running engine. Could be some temp or emission switch. The double wire on one side is nothing and common, I've never looked it up to see what it does. If enough amp through wire, that second one could be a bypass to coil but better to use the provided one as more volt available there at the crucial voltage sucking time of cranking starter.
Regardless, I would listen to others and not simply assume that is the bypass wire to coil. Could burn something up. You can easily run your own bypass by picking large enough wire and simply run it from the solenoid 'I' post to + of coil while leaving all other wires on coil in same place.
Some solenoids (AMC at least) were funky and did not ground through the case as the pic says, rather a separate wire off BACK of solenoid to ground through another switch somewhere. Solenoid works exactly the same other than how it grounds though.
Solenoids as they get older erode the main big contacts inside from all the arcing going on. After a point the contacts have eroded to where not as much contact area and volts then begin to drop off. Solution is new solenoid...... ...........
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That's a really good point.
If that loose wire did lead to the coil, then there would be about 9 volts at the wire when the car's running.
That's another confusing thing :
If there's supposed to be a wire from the "I" terminal to the coil and that "I" terminal gives a shot of 12 volts to the coil when cranking, when the car is running, the coil (which already has 8.9 volts) would send that 8.9 volts BACK to the "I" terminal.
I wonder if that would screw something up at the solenoid?
For me to put 12 V to the coil, do I just run a jumper wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the side of the coil that has 8.9 volts when running?
Should I put the 12v to the coil, start the car, then take the 12V wire off the coil?
Would this give me a stronger spark while the engine is cranking?
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On the solenoid, the "I" terminal is a normally open switch. Internally it closes when the ignition switch is turned to the start position and the starter cranks. You then get voltage at that terminal. If you had a wire going from the + of the coil back to that, no power will run "backwards", once the ignition switch is released the switch becomes open again. If you had a wiring diagram of the vehicle you could figure out what it goes to. I think we're all curious now.
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'You can easily run your own bypass by picking large enough wire and simply run it from the solenoid 'I' post to + side of coil while leaving all other wires on coil or solenoid in same place.'
And what Ford does. Forget wiring off battery, you have exact same volts at solenoid if cables and connections are good and clean.
Running 9 volts backwards into the solenoid does nothing since once the forward circuit opens (contacts snap back apart) the post on solenoid is as far as the power can go, open circuit there, or as RSM states. Again, how factory Fords are wired. AMCs were exactly the same.
'Should I put the 12v to the coil, start the car, then take the 12V wire off the coil?
Would this give me a stronger spark while the engine is cranking?'
No, do as first sentence says and you don't have to, solenoid then does it for you. Yes, you have stronger spark, but cannot do it all the time, coil or points will overheat and burn up. For the short period it takes to start car only. ALL 12 volt car old school coils are 6 volt ones modified to take slightly more power, they toast if you give them 12 volts all the time, why they don't have it. The extra wiring off solenoid specifically to give a starting ignition 'booster'.
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You can color code the loose wire by stripping the plastic back a bit and if in the big city go to public library and commonly in reference section you can find factory service and wiring manuals that are very expensive to us normal folk. I've used that resource in Dallas here more than once. Like as not you'll find wiring diagram for normal 'Bird to work on that specialty one as long as you reference the correct year/type motor.
If you have a wire plugged into choke then see if it matches the loose plug in's color code. Choke should have say 6 volts at the plug-in when engine is running, does it? Maybe loose lead goes to alt stator........ .............. .don't plug it in there without good reason though.
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Well, here are today's findings.
For some reason, I now have 9.9 Volts at the battery side of the coil when idling. When I rev it, it goes up past 10V.
I attached a wire from the "I" terminal and ran it to the battery side of the coil. When I cranked the engine with the key, I got 12 + Volts at the coil for a very brief second until the engine fired up (it starts very quickly when it's not wet out).
At idle, the voltage at the coil is still just under 10 V. When I rev, it goes up into the 10's. I hope that's not too much?
I also checked that loose wire a bunch of times - it has no voltage at any time. I elected to just leave it where it was.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Dave
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Why fix it if it's not broke...ya know? 8)
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That loose wire looks like it goes to the coolant temp sensor or oil pressure switch. I had my whole wiring harness out of my car when i Couldn't find the short to ground on my car. The oil pressure switch and coolant temp sender are on the driver side toward the rear of the engine, about the same height as the intake manifold. The coolant temp sender is about 8 inches below the oil pressure switch. My car is a 79 mercury bobcat
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Yep, I'd be looking down there in the dark cubby hole. 'Course, if one of those you will not have them working correctly and the giveaway. Idiot light would not be working on pressure switch or temp gauge not working on the sensor for it. Again, if the thing goes to stator for power to choke, you would have no power to the choke coil. Does it?
How many wires go to PLUS side of coil?
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That makes good sense - I installed a SunPro temperature gauge and SunPro temperature sending unit which I ran my own wire to so I may have just disconnected the factory wire and forgot about it! (I forget a lot these days... :-[ )
Do you guys think that 10V + at the coil is going to be a problem down the line?
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I personally do not........... ............it 's just gotta be lower than 12............ ....as the ballast resistor in the harness heats up the resistance changes some anyway and calculated to do so. A temperature controller for the coil.
They started out when the switch was made from 6 volt to 12 volt coils way back in the day to use 6 volt coil on 12 volt system. Something about wanting to keep existing coil makers from having to make major changes in equipment. The idea of the starting bypass also fit right in with that and all car makers adopted the idea. Different makers used slightly different resistor values though, doing that can move voltage around a bit. Some used like 1.80 ohm or .5 ohm or so and some like GM and Ford used 1.35 ohm.
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Hi Guys,
I hope everybody's been keeping warm!
It was 36* last night and had been raining all day so I figured it would be a good time to see if the car would start.
It started without issue and ran for 3 or 4 minutes.
I turned it off and tried to start it again and it wouldn't fire.
It cranked without issue and I could smell a lot of gas and a couple of times, it almost fired when I let go of the key but I couldn't get it started.
Eventually I drained the battery so I put a trickle charger on it and tried again this morning (it's dry and windy today, 35*). It fired right up and ran fine.
So I obviously don't have the wet-weather starting issue fixed yet.
It starts and runs like a bear every time - unless the engine is cold and it's wet out.
A few times when I let off the ignition switch, it almost started....may be there's an issue with the timing?
Dave
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Smelling gas too quick has too much choke issue all over it if the ignition is hot.
You either know the timing is correct for a fact or you are wasting your time and battery....... .....
If the loose wire goes to choke power then choke not pulling off and a problem there, it has electric pulloff, you STILL need to research and cure that wire.
If plugs are old could just be that.......... ............
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Take the ignition module and have it tested. It sounds bad to me, even tho you said it was new. When i first got my 76 it would not start. It would try to start as I let off the key, but would not fire while cranking. It was the control module....
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Not out of the realm of possibility... .............. ............th ey don't go bad that often but when they do the effects can be mystifying as no two ever seem to fail with same symptoms.
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Thanks for the replies.
I'm on new ignition module #2 and have tried 2 other used modules. I can not detect any difference in the way the engine runs when I change modules.
I don't know where to bring the ignition module to check it. Who checks modules?
The choke is definitely working and I believe that wire that's lying there is for the original temperature gauge. I installed a SunPro temperature gauge and I ran new wires when I did that. The SunPro gauge lets me monitor the temperature in detail (not just "Hot" or "Cold" or somewhere in between....)
I've never touched the spark plugs.
When the weather warms up a bit (still a "Polar Vortex" thing going on here), I'll verify the timing and pull the plugs.
Do you have a recommendation for spark plugs? I don't know if these engines are temperamental with spark plugs....do they like a specific plug or will any new plug be okay?
Thanks again, stay warm!
Dave
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Autolite or NGK's..
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Nothing personal but you're kinda lost.
'I'm on new ignition module #2 and have tried 2 other used modules.'
You've already tested the module in effect, the odds of 4 being bad are astronomical.
'The choke is definitely working....... ........'
No mention of it properly PULLING OFF. If you only mean it's closing, the possible missing wire pulls it back open correctly and possibly your smelling gas issue. The wire may lead to the element that pulls the choke OFF. So, your comment as quoted is worthless. As perfectly described by this.......... .
'It started without issue and ran for 3 or 4 minutes.
I turned it off and tried to start it again and it wouldn't fire.'
The choke shutting but not opening properly on time could easily do that. Perfect description of that effect.
And not touching the plugs but chasing module and other much more expensive things? You're going backwards there.
Any plug will work until you sort the issue out; virtually all NEW plug performance is the same at first. You can get platinum but wasting money on double platinum. Old school non-plats will work fine they just don't retain gap as long as plats do. Double plats are for waste spark ignitions, these do not have them. I always prefer to use same maker of plug that factory engine came with, the heat ranges will always be more accurate that way. Despite all the millions of comments that say otherwise I've never seen any plug last longer than any other if they were same basic construction. I use AC plugs in GM cars, Champion in Mopar, NGK in Japanese, and Autolite or Motorcraft in Ford. They all last forever if rest of engine is maintained, so many people blame plug when there is no difference. Pretty funny in my view. A plug is a plug.
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I originally changed ignition modules because I had an extra one on the shelf in the barn.
Then a Ford 2.3 Turbo guy I know said, "I'll tell you right now that your problem is that ignition module."
So I bought a new one and tried that. (by now we're on module #3).
A couple of weeks later when I got the '76 Pinto engine, I bought all new stuff for that....coil, ignition module, cap, rotor, etc...
I figured that I'd try the other new ignition module on the car (#4 now).
No ignition module gives me any different result than any other ignition module.
Since my last post, I've done nothing.
I got hurt at work and everybody's been on my back to do NOTHING that doesn't have to be done.
However....
I drove the car on Sunday and it started and ran perfectly. It's now 49 degrees outside and has been raining for 2 days. I figured that this was the perfect time to see if the car would start.
Of course, it would not.
I pressed the gas pedal once (all the way to the floor) and let my foot completely off. I cranked it for 30 seconds or so and it turned over like nobody's business but wouldn't start. I turned the key off and waited 30 seconds then without pressing the gas, I tried again and got the same result.
I pulled the top of the air cleaner off and the choke was closed. I stuck a screwdriver down the carb and the car started right up.
When I pulled the screwdriver out, the choke did not close all the way anymore but the engine idled fine.
I turned the key off and tried again. The choke slams shut as soon as I crank the key. It does not open until the car starts.
Once the car starts, the choke opens up, everything is ducky and the car idles beautifully again.
I decided to check the timing. So I made a white mark on the crankshaft pulley (at zero).
Here's a picture:
(http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac9/Surfnut74/IMGP1310_zpse2502e94.jpg) (http://s880.photobucket.com/user/Surfnut74/media/IMGP1310_zpse2502e94.jpg.html)
Here's where the timing mark is at idle (less than 1000 rpm).
(Also, you'll see the interesting spark issue at the end of the recording.)
http://youtu.be/2pAC3uF0cEQ
Does that timing look correct to you? I thought it was supposed to be something like 6 or 7 degrees?
Dave
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What is your total advance that's what's critical..
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Too far advanced but vacuum advance to distributor must be unplugged while checking timing. If not done then could explain why so far up.
Been awhile since I played with these but the choke may not be closed all the way at stone cold engine before starting, often they have a 'qualification setting' meaning when you go and hit the accelerator pedal once to set the choke plate it closes but not quite fully shut, there is a small aircrack set there on purpose. Some cars require that, if no air at all with choke shut the engine instantly floods plugs and no start. Need to look up your year and see if that carb needs to be cracked open at choke a bit. In fact you can loosen the cover and simply adjust by rolling the cover one way or the other to get that dead cold setting cracked open a bit. Then lock cover back down. Try different air gaps at the choke plate and see if your starting gets any better. Setting the plate has nothing to do with the plate opening fully as motor gets hot, it will still do it.
You got bad plug wires there, could be the problem right there......... .......
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DOH! I forgot to unplug the vacuum advance!! Thank you for reminding me. I'll try again on Sunday.
The choke does close all the way when I press the gas pedal. It SLAMS shut and is completely shut.
When you say, "you can loosen the cover and simply adjust by rolling the cover one way or the other..."
What cover?
I'll take more pictures of the carb tomorrow and post.
I'll get some new wires!! It seems that that coil wired only arcs when the clutch cable is close to it but still....proba bly not good!
Thanks a million for your help with this, I went out yesterday and when it wouldn't start again, I swore that if somebody came buy and said, "Hey, you want to sell that car?" That I'd PUSH it into their driveway. I love the thing but when it won't start like this, I get nuts.
Other than the no start in wet weather, this car is unbelievably good to me.
Thanks again,
Dave
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When you say, "you can loosen the cover and simply adjust by rolling the cover one way or the other..."
What cover?
The round cover on the side, loosen the three screws on the clamp and rotate the cover accordingly, the colder the weather the tighter it needs to be but without a coke pull off you need a slight gap or it will flood when it starts. A choke pull off operates on vacuum as soon as the motor starts the vacuum pulls the choke open a crack to let air in.
(http://www.carburetion.com/images/weber/32-36_DGEV_Electric_Choke.jpg)