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Offline yhalkeeiron

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2.0 ticking noise
« on: September 28, 2014, 07:36:59 PM »
My Pinto seems to be making a slight ticking noise at idle speeds it sounds like it's coming from the valve cover please help if anyone might know what it could be thanks

Offline amc49

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 07:40:45 PM »
Run the rockers....... .......

Offline yhalkeeiron

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 07:51:50 PM »
I did the intake at 008 and the  exhaust at .010 and still a slight ticking noise. The engine is running nice and smooth

Offline 72pair

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 08:28:13 PM »
And do the valves the old fashioned way ie turn each lobe to center base circle and adjust. I had a hipo cam that drove me nuts with the ticking because I was adjusting both valves at TDC on each cylinder. Set the lash a lobe at a time and it purred! 
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 08:58:23 PM »
I agree, do each valve at base & see what happens
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Offline yhalkeeiron

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 09:34:54 PM »
Ok ill try it again. I did set it one at a time. and the lobe was all the way up. But maybe I miss something

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 09:47:47 PM »
Ok ill try it again. I did set it one at a time. and the lobe was all the way up. But maybe I miss something

All the way up? It should be down. You want the bottom of the lobe against the follower
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Offline yhalkeeiron

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2014, 09:53:43 PM »
Ok that would make the valve all the way open correct? How would I be able to check the gap with a filler gauge?

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2014, 10:13:20 PM »
Yeah the lash is set with the valve closed. Since the lobe lifts the follower you want the top of the lobe 180 degrees from full opening to set lash
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Offline yhalkeeiron

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2014, 10:22:37 PM »
Ok thanks I'll go through it again and see what happens

Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 06:23:21 PM »
Let me know what you find... I have a head I just took off where I could not adjust out the tick... My head guy heard it running and told me it 's time to pull it. I have only 4k mile on a fresh rebuild....  Very interested in what you find...
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Offline HOSS429

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 07:41:45 PM »
turn the radio up louder . ;D

Offline amc49

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2014, 12:42:45 PM »
If you get wonky abnormal wear on parts they can tick and be dead on apparent clearance. The valve tip to follower wear rather than follower to cam can do it too. The follower tip is radiused, if valve tip wears out of flat to sideways angled the rocker motion can have the follower swing very fast sideways, the rapid motion will tick as it resets with every on/off.

Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2014, 09:43:55 AM »
AMC, thanks...

Sounds like this has happened to you before. I was thinking of replacing the ball studs due to the wear- I have always been told that this is not necessary but it's still on my mind. With the head off I see a wear pattern on the rocker pads that look centered but the tips, (what you suggested to look at) are generally centered but some are closer to the tip of the rocker. This looks like a real good suggestion.

Another question for all that a dealing with these old engines- It's likely that most 2.0 heads out there have been redone 2-3 times in the past. Valve seats replaced, reground, ball studs having many different rockers over the years- how do you set everything back to factory and 'know' it's right? All new parts but that leaves the valve guides, seats and cam bearing surfaces as a unknown...

Not to hijack this thread- still very interested in how yhalkeeiron re adjust turns out...
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2014, 11:41:55 AM »
Roller rocker arm please.
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Offline amc49

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2014, 02:06:01 PM »
If valve grinding guy worth his salt he has been keeping it on all the time, every time valves are cut he is supposed to record how much off each one to clean face up and then later takes one half that amount off the stem tips to keep all geometry pretty close to dead on. Could be a problem on non-induction hardened exhaust seats though, they will need monster cutting every time you do them. You can lose the head over the seat being so deep nothing fits anymore. Could take so much off exhaust tip that valve gets into lock grooves.

The collapsed tappet gap check would locate you correctly somewhat for a 2.3. On a 2.0 I assume a centered rub patch on rocker arm, not running off one end. Valve tip should not really uncover on end of rocker slot, anything like over halfway is destruction. Cam bearing and guides pretty much can't get off far enough to do harm unless guide dead wore out and valve flopping sideways. I would watch how far up ball has to move to take up clearance, further out is evidence of getting out of shape there. I do not know what the 'brand new' standard would be there though.

Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2014, 12:22:40 PM »
turn the radio up louder . ;D

Actually, I did this for a while... the ticking noise really grinds on me and I can't relax... It's funny but sometimes it's the only thing to do..
:)
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Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2014, 12:38:14 PM »
Have not heard back from yhalkeeiron so I'm going to continue his thread still hoping for his results... :)

I received my Head back from the machine shop and he replaced all the valves and 4 exhaust guides. He still could not guarantee that we don't have an issue and I completely understood. He left the valves for me to adjust and I like that so I can know they are right before I put it back in the car. Was working with the head on the bench today and was really taking my time asking myself all kinds of questions/ double double checking this go around and found something interesting, or so I think.

With the lobe straight up I adjust the valve to spec and started rotating the cam around and found that with the cam lob to one side (not straight up) the gap was greater. Hmmm... This is a new cam from Burton with ~4Kmiles on it already (Detroit Stampede Trip) and the wear looks very normal and passed the machine shop inspection. FYI, all the rockers were kept with the correct lobes on rework. So I'm thinking that the adjustment needs to be correct at 'Base Circle' which would be the lowest point on the cam lob in reference to the center of the cam rod... correct? OK, so that stopped me from adjusting any further and I started worshipping at the Google God extensively and found this on a Crane cams reference site...
**************************************
Setting Valve Lash on Mechanical Cams
All the valves must be set individually and only when the lifter is properly located on the base circle of the lobe. At this position the valve is
closed and there is no lift taking place. How will you know when the valve you are adjusting is in the proper position with the lifter on the base
circle of the cam? This can be accomplished by watching the movement of the valves.
1. When the engine is hot (at operating temperature) remove the valve covers and pick the cylinder you are going to adjust.
2. Hand turn the engine in its normal direction of rotation while watching the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder. When the
exhaust valve begins to open, stop and adjust that cylinder’s intake valve. (Why? Because when the exhaust is just beginning to open,
the intake lifter will be on the base circle of the lobe, so the intake is the one we can now adjust.)
3. Use a feeler gauge, set to the correct valve lash, and place it between the tip of the valve stem and rocker arm. Adjust until you
arrive at the proper setting and lock the adjuster in place.
4. After the intake valve has been adjusted, continue to rotate the engine, watching that same intake valve. The intake valve will go to
full lift and then begin to close. When the intake is almost closed, stop and adjust the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder. (Again,
when we see the intake valve almost closed, we are sure that the exhaust lifter is on the base circle of the lobe.) Use the feeler gauge
and follow the procedure described before in step 3.
5. Both valves on this cylinder are now adjusted, so move to your next cylinder and follow the same procedure again. In the future you
may find shortcuts to this method, but it still remains the best way to do the job correctly.
http://www.cranecams.com/pdf-tech-tips/mech-lift.pdf
*********************************************

Now this is odiously talking about a V8 with lifters etc... BUT this looks valid fro our engines too?
I'm thinking that this is a correct way to look at adjusting the 2.0 valves on our Pintos... BUT I have always adjusted them cold... ? This seems to make sense to get the cam in the right position to adjust the gap to the correct spec. Does this translate to our 2.0 in your opinion?

What do you guys think?
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Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2014, 12:42:07 PM »
Roller rocker arm please.

Yes- I have been told this before... I guess I just don't feel comfortable with this unless I send a head to be reworked and refitted by Ivy Engines where it can be don't right, I know I don't have the skills for this. And to really look at the big picture it might have been less expensive in the long run but looking at what I invested in everything to this point, I don't want to get off this train just yet...  Still so expensive to do this..
:)
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Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2014, 12:46:11 PM »
That's the true way of doing it, this way no matter where your cam is timed at when you adjust them they'll always be on the heel.
Art
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Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2014, 12:51:01 PM »
Some pictures... Have the game on working on the Pinto... Can't get any better than this!




Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd

Offline Scott Hamilton

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2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2014, 01:07:11 PM »
If you get wonky abnormal wear on parts they can tick and be dead on apparent clearance. The valve tip to follower wear rather than follower to cam can do it too. The follower tip is radiused, if valve tip wears out of flat to sideways angled the rocker motion can have the follower swing very fast sideways, the rapid motion will tick as it resets with every on/off.

AMC, I did not response to your post until now but I did discuss this with my head guy- I did find the rocker tip wear to be generally centered but there were 3 that were off closer to the tip of the rocker- none past the tip however. I showed this to him when I took it in because of your post. He seemed to key on this and I suspect that is why he replaced all the valves. BUT.. I still have the warn rockers abet them being only ~4K miles on them... do you (or anyone else) think I need to replace the cam and rockers as well since the valves were replaced?
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2014, 01:26:03 PM »
Yes- I have been told this before... I guess I just don't feel comfortable with this unless I send a head to be reworked and refitted by Ivy Engines where it can be don't right, I know I don't have the skills for this. And to really look at the big picture it might have been less expensive in the long run but looking at what I invested in everything to this point, I don't want to get off this train just yet...  Still so expensive to do this..
:)
      The Pinto 2.0 roller rocker arm are a direct drop in with no cam change or any extra parts or skill necessary to install. I used them on stock cams and racing cams with no problems what so ever. Were no different to install than a stock rocker arm. Just remove the old and install the new. Then set the lash and enjoy the peace of mind that this set up will out last the car.
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Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2014, 01:39:45 PM »
Thanks Dick-
Did some searching and could not find a kit to order from Burton and then I found this from our site...
http://www.fordpinto.com/pintos-wanted/2-0-roller-rockers-valves-etc/
Very good information as well.  Looks like I can use the 2.3 rollers on a 2.0 with a different cam... Looking into now with much interest....
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2014, 04:32:04 PM »
Sorry but as usual, Esslinger is only telling part of the truth. 2.3 rocker arms and 2.0 rocker arms are the same as Esslinger stated, BUT the 2.0 they are talking about is the 2.0 Ranger engine which is a 2.3 that for what ever reason, has a smaller bore with all else the same as a 2.3 Pinto engine. Plain and simple, the 2.3 rocker arms will not work on a non Ranger 2.0 engine. The only part that will fit both is the oil filter. Best bet is to get on a forum from over there (which there are many) and post a wanted ad for the roller rocker arm. There should be many as they were used on taxi's all over that part of the world in the 60s & 70s. Wish you luck, but it will be well worth the hunt. You will never lose a cam with then. If you get the 2.0 roller rocker arms, no cam change will be necessary as they were interchangeabl e with the stock rocker arms.
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Offline Scott Hamilton

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2014, 10:28:23 PM »
Ahh, ok... Thanks much for the return post. Looks like I'm in the hunt for these and stash them for the next go around. If I find a source for all, I'll post it here.  :)
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Offline amc49

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2014, 04:35:13 AM »
Doesn't matter if valve is adjusted hot or cold so long as you have temperature COMPENSATED for that. If they say set hot, then do so and come back and re-measure the cold numbers and then set them cold using the modded numbers, or set cold and then re-measure at engine hot to set them hot. Most set cold for obvious reasons.

These are easy but big springs can push cam around a bit in the towers to mod the setting a bit. It becomes a nightmare like on motorcycle with 16 valves and cams being pushed all out of dead flat to modify the valve clearances hugely. You get to where you set as close as you can to TDC compression point as the clearance changes all over the base circle when cams move around as other valves force them out of true. Just moving around base circle could vary .003" and easy. Some engines you set as much as .004" too loose intentionally simply to guarantee they are closing at some point since you don't really ever know. I saw engines with up to .003" clearance when running act like valves being held open, a curious phenomenon. It seems that sitting still and running can be very different conditions real world.

I love roller rockers but leery of them 'lasting forever', the needle bearings are hard as sh-t and they will like all hardened rollers pretty much come apart all at once to do massive damage with little warning at all at the end of life, they do not wear slowly to show for a while. Just a thought....... ......I NEVER trust them 'forever'. The damage them rollers do is never light either. After a certain point I always changed them for insurance. Like connecting rod, the all or nothing at all theorem in practice. If only running stock springload and valve I'd stay with stock rocker, they wear slower and you can watch it play out over longterm time to fix it later. Much less risk there. And heavily used possible 'taxi' rollers? No way would I go there, but then that's me after seeing how much those little bearings can tear up in all kinds of other engines. Now, if one could find a low mile set yeah, fine.

Offline yhalkeeiron

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2014, 09:49:40 PM »

Offline yhalkeeiron

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2014, 09:57:52 PM »
Thanks for all the help. Sorry I wasn't much help. All I know so far is when my motor warms up it seemed like the ticking noise went away. And it takes a while since I'm not using a thermostat. My car is in the body shop getting painted. When she gets out I'm definitely going to figure it out thanks again

Offline amc49

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Re: 2.0 ticking noise
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2014, 10:20:26 PM »
That's why if they set cold the space is so big, the valves extend with temperature to be longer and then they are tighter clearance. Ideally, when engine hot you want maybe .002"-.004", or just enough to make sure valve cannot stick open to lose power and to let oil film not be wiped dry to kill lobes.

The Crane Cams reference to setting valves is great but for V-8s where you cannot see the lobes buried in the vee. These you can easily view the lobe to make the high point exactly opposite the follower contact point and set the valve there. Piece of cake.......... .