Welcome to, The home of the PCCA => General Help- Ask the Experts... => Topic started by: Nudemaple on April 23, 2019, 09:16:23 PM

Title: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: Nudemaple on April 23, 2019, 09:16:23 PM
Got to love these head scratching, hair pulling situations. You learn so much when you baby a classic to health. The clutch went out on my wagon. My mechanic was pretty sure the tranny was ok, so I ordered a Luk Repset kit. I also ordered a new cable and a refurb flywheel just in case. I already had a new starter and motor and tranny mounts for future installation, so it would be a rather large job for him.

The car goes on the lift, open up everything and discover a crack in the upper facing portion of the bell housing and things began to make sense. Two weeks prior, I hit a pot hole and heard a rattle. The Luk Repset included the wrong throwout bearing, so we had to purchase the correct one, which delayed the work by a full day. Meanwhile, the bell housing was getting a weld job and input and output shaft seals were ordered. Disappointed in Luk. They appear to have their shizod together based on all the research I did ahead of time. Amazon credited me cause I complained. The rest of the clutch kit worked fine. I returned the flywheel and cable cause they were not needed. The starter and mounts went in with no problem.

The work dragged out for nearly a week due to other cars needing attention in his shop so unfortunately we never got around to the severe vertical play issue in the shifter. He said I should look for a "shaft shift seal" online and the next time I bring the car in he can install it. I can certainly live with the play in the shifter and I know that he'll have to drop the tranny all over again to install the shift seal BUT the search for the mysterious "shift shaft seal" has driven me CRAZY.

The FOG 4 speed transmission has very limited parts available. I've researched exhaustively dozens of online sources PLUS sending emails to Timken, SKF and National all of whom make shift shaft seals for automatic transmissions and I'm awaiting their response.  I know there was a TREMEC 4 speed manual transmission in 60's Ford's but those seals can't compatible with FOG. Or are they? I'm not understanding why there are seals available for automatic Pinto's but not for the Pinto FOG. I even looked for Bobcat and other 70's cars with FOG RWD 4 speed trannies. I'm wondering if the automatic shift shaft seals that are so easily found are also usable on the FOG manual shifter BUT nowhere is it written that they use the same seal. After all were talking about a seal not an entire set of synchros and gears.

I've come up with SKF 5510, Timken 313156 and National 312518 all as possibilities but have no confirmation that any of those will work on the FOG tranny. Naturally, I won't have him open the tranny to install a seal I can't find or doesn't even exist BUT this has me baffled and I'm missing something here but need other opinions and revelations. Any ideas, resources, help, suggestions? Thanks for listening fellas. Looking forward to your thoughts. gus

Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: LongTimeFordMan on April 23, 2019, 09:59:14 PM
Check out autozone..

They have a complete correct kit, clutch, pressure plate, to bearing  fo about $100.

When i got my 73 wagon the previous owner put in a LUK kit.. The TO bearing failed after 3000 miles..

Its a cheep stampred sheet metal case.

The  Autozone oem TO bearing  is cast machined steel

As.for the trans seal.. are you sure that the trans is a type e FOG and not a later model used in the pinto/ mustang ii?

Its my understanding that the type e FOG was only used with the 2.0 engine..

As for the vertical shifter movement, there are 2 parts to the external shifter mechanism, the shift LEVER that is vertical, pivots in a nylon bushing that screws into the extension housing and comes up thru the floor with the knob on top. The shift LEVER   is tensioned to rise up to lock out reverse by a large rubber grommet that acts like a spring. It is located just above the screw in nylon nut and is secured at the top  by a circlip around the shaft of the shift lever..

If the rubber gromet is worn or missing or the circlip above it   is missing, the shift LEVER will drop downward creating a lot of vertical "play".

The actual shifter RAIL Is horizontal, extends from the shift LEVER at the rear, into the rear of the transmission case and engages the shift FORKS inside the transmission case, It has a slot at the rear that the bottom of the shift LEVER fits into. The RAIL only moves front to back horizontally and rotates slightly so there is very little stress on it.. so it is unlikely that the shifter RAIL bushings or seals are worn. Even so, wear on the bushings  would not show up at the LEVER.

Because  all of the shifting is accomplished by moving and rotating the one integral rail at the top, thetransmissio n is referred to as a "single rail" as opposed to the ones with shift levers extending from side of the transmission.

Vertical play  at the LEVER is usually the result of a worn or mssing rubber grommet or circlip

Here is a pic of a reasonably healthy gromet installed on the shift LEVER if yours is missing, worn or torn the vertical looseness is probably caused by the gromet.

There is a conversion mod that replaces the rubber grommet with a spring..

Heres a link to another post that may help

Heres a post dealing withe the gromet and mod.

If it is the early type e,  and you do need bushings or seals, try contacting Taylor race engineering in Plano,TX

They build racing transmissions for the 2.0 and have a lot of parts.

Ot try Burton Power. Or Racer Walsh
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: Wittsend on April 23, 2019, 10:27:22 PM
As mentioned the FOG transmission was used in the Pinto/Bobcat and MAYBE the Capri. The Automatic transmission were used in a LOT of Ford cars for a LOT of years. That is why those seals are more plentiful.

I put a Luk clutch in my old Mazda 323. From reports it seemed a good product. And for the two years/15,000 additional miles I had the car I had no issues. My recollection was that the throwout bearing and pilot bearing were from Japan, the disc Mexico, the pressure plate South Africa and the alignment tool from the USA. I believe it was a $150 kit I got off Ebay for $80 shipped.
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: Nudemaple on April 23, 2019, 11:11:04 PM
We did end up ordering the throwout bearing from Autozone and it was $35.99. I'm seeing now the Duralast Clutch kit you speak of for $97.99 and do see the beefier TO bearing in the photo. I ordered the Luk from Amazon for about $89 but as I said it came with a TO bearing that looked nothing like what should have been in there. This is not a daily driver so I'm hopeful that the Luk set up will last at least 5000 miles.

Regarding the seal I'm looking for, it is not an input or output shaft seal. It is a SHIFT SHAFT SEAL for the shifter. It might be a kit actually with a ring to keep the seal in the correct vertical position. I'm waiting for Timken, SKF and National to respond. If it's not a FOG, then it's a 4 speed manual TREMEC, SROD?????

I'm attaching some photos but not of the area where the shifters goes. I forgot to get a detailed photo of that. The extension housing clearly shows 75ET 7A039 AB and the tranny says 77 ET 7006 AA. So although the years don't match, it appears both are ET or European? Correct?

Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: LongTimeFordMan on April 24, 2019, 12:08:38 AM
As i mentioned.. I dont think the Shifter RAIL has a seal.. it is completely contained witbin the transmission case or the tailshaft..

It also rides in borings in the cast iron case and doesnt have bushings..

See the pix in the article i linked to above with the top plate removed.

The only way you could determine if the shift RAIL had excessive vertical play would be to remove the top plate of the trnsmission.

Did you check the rubber grommet to see if it was worn

Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: Nudemaple on April 24, 2019, 12:43:07 AM
Unfortunately I was not in the shop when the entire transmission was removed and placed on the ground. I did take several photos but none close up where the lever goes into the extension housing BUT you can see from the photo of the entire tranny and extension housing that the hole seems to have nothing in it and I don't recall seeing the actual shifter rod nearby. I've sent out emails to the folks you recommended.
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: LongTimeFordMan on April 24, 2019, 01:00:50 AM
If the transmission is installed in the car you can easily check the grommet and retaining circlip by removing the screws that hold down the shifter boot and looking at the grommet.

If you can move the shift LEVER up and down round and round a lot, and the rubber looks deterriorated, chances are its just the grommet.

The gromet is a sort of unique method ford used to replace a spring and unless your mechanic has had experience with pintos, he probably wouldnt suspect a worn or deterriorated grommet as the problem and mis diagnose the problem.

He may also be referring to the nylon bushing that the shift LEVER pivots in, thinking it was bad when it could just be a bad grommet.

Or the nylon bushing may be bad.

The rubber grommet holds the shift LEVER up to serve as a reverse lockout so that to.shift into reverse you need to press down on the LEVER then left and forward.

If you can engage reverse without pressing down on the LEVER, then the grommet is bad.

Check out the link about replacing the grommet with a spring..

There is also a small nylon "SADDLE" bushing inside the tailshaft where the shift LEVER goes that fits between the shift LEVER and the slot in the RAIL that wears out and can cause looseness.

See photos in the links above

Excessive play side to side front to back is caused by a worn or missing "SADDLE" bushing where the LEVER AND RAIL connect.
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: Nudemaple on April 24, 2019, 01:28:00 AM
Yes I did see the links to the spring mod. And, correct in that I don't have to push down to get into at the very least it's the grommet. Too bad a kit with grommet and saddle bushing isn't easily found for these older models. I think I came across some parts for Ranger shifters. Maybe the photo that was attached in the other thread has individual part nos. that I can dicipher.
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: LongTimeFordMan on April 24, 2019, 01:58:23 AM
The spring is the way to go since i dont think the rubber gromets areavailable any more and not sure  if you could even install them since the shift lever has a big rubber damper midway.

Also.. check to make sure that there is a circlip at the top of the grommet fitted into the groove in the shift lever. If there isnt one, the grommet wont have aywhere to seat to push up on the lever.

racer walsh sells a spring shifter for $175.

But check out the mod in the links. A spring should only cost a few dollars and you can select one that has the tension you like and cut or stretch it to get it like you want it.

And it wont wear out.

Also you dont need to reinstall the rubber boot..

The saddle is available on amazon or ebay for $10-20

And a jeep CJ uses a similar one for about $8

Heres a link with part numbers for the jeep unit cor about $2

Not sure where this company is located but there are part numbers so try your local jeep dealers your
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: Nudemaple on April 24, 2019, 11:45:33 AM
Thank you all for your ideas. I've been looking around and waiting for responses from some of these sites you mentioned. Specifically the bearingparts site from the UK. If I have any updates I'll post here. Thanks again.
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: LongTimeFordMan on April 24, 2019, 11:50:38 AM
You re welcome..

In the meantime, do look at the grommet..
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: Wittsend on April 24, 2019, 12:56:29 PM
It all is sound advice you have gotten. FYI over the years a number of people have discussed the nylon bushing as a cause for a sloppy shifter.
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: LongTimeFordMan on April 24, 2019, 01:04:45 PM
Well the nylon bushing was used to serve as a sacrificial replaceable part to prevent possible metal to metal wear to the more expensive shifter mechanism so wear is expected and very common.
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: pinto_one on April 24, 2019, 02:46:40 PM
The lose shifter nylon screw in part does wear and also the saddle that the fork goes on the linkage wears also , you can by a new shifter from burton power uk , the trans mission is a ford type "E"  ( they call it a rocket over there )  they have both the newer quick shifter and the saddle along with the gaskets and other idems you may need ,  I have brought quite a few parts from them for my 2.8 V6 ,  check it out , , later Blaine
Title: Re: 1976 2.3L Wagon 4 speed Manual (MPG version)
Post by: Nudemaple on April 25, 2019, 06:30:57 PM
Thanks Blaine. I did write to Burton explaining the issue and asking them to narrow down what I need and what page I can order them from but they haven't responded. I might have to spend a lot of time on their site and figure it out myself...but I did figure out that they call it "rocket".