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Offline Jon Britton

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1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« on: March 12, 2016, 07:22:19 PM »
Ok, so I bought this 74 coupe a few months back and it had all sorts of short cuts going on. The biggest one was a horrible ignition bypassing job with a starter switch and push button. Well I removed all of that and
Ordered a new ignition switch. Now the problem is even with the old ignition switch, if I connect the negative battery cable the car cranks and starts, no key being used. Also the starter stays engaged. What the heck is going on?

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2016, 08:56:57 PM »
Bad starter solenoid most likely.
Hit it with something fairly solid and see if it still does it. They can stick in the on position.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2016, 01:23:34 PM »
Going to try that today, thanks.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2016, 11:26:43 AM »
Put in a new solenoid and a momentary on push button. Wired it up and nothing. Ran a new ignition signal wire (red with blue stripe) connected this to button and car started but wouldn't shut off, running off alternator and ignition switch was still bad. Put in new ignition switch and nothing happens when I turn the key. No lights or anything, so should I wire a push and toggle for ignition or what. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2016, 11:40:03 PM »
If you have no lights even, then there is something wrong electrically with more than just the starting circuit.

Sounds like you need to get a wiring diagram and start tracing circuits. Not that much fun for most people.

When you say new ignition switch, you are talking about the one at the base of the steering column, correct? Not the key one? Sorry if I seem an ahole, but some people, including me in the past, thought the key part was the ignition switch.
Either way put the old one back on and see if at least the lights come back on, assuming you had lights with the old one. Using the toggle switch like you mention won't fix the no lights problem.

Another thought (you probably won't like very much). If the wiring harness on the car has been hacked up that bad, you might want to just replace it with one from another car. No new ones are made for these old cars, so that is the only way to replace one if you go that route.

It's hard to get too detailed when we can't see the car in person and look it over. It could be something very simple like a broken wire, or something really major.
 
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2016, 01:57:46 PM »
It's the switch down on the column not the key cylinder. And no believe me you're the first one I've spoken too that has offered any advice lol.
The lights problem was my fault, connections were loose so fixed that.
Now just no starting with the new ignition switch. Seems to be the start wire that runs from the starter relay. And while I hate it I think I'm gonna have to go down the road of replacing the wiring harness. Thanks again for the advice, hoping to have this thing on the road by summer.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2016, 11:44:08 PM »
Well, I l like doing electrical. But I am weird.
I'm an electronic tech by trade. Car electrical is close enough. Most of what I used to work on has 12VDC as a power source.

Do you happen to have a DVM (digital volt meter) or at least a decent 12V test light? If so, check the connection at the starter relay that goes to the starter when you have the key turned to start. If you have 12V ( or the light lights) then you have an open in between there and the starter, or even a bad starter. Or possibly not enought current even though there is the 12V there.  If no 12V there, remove the starter cable from there and try again. If you now have 12V (or the light lights up) there is most likely a short in the starter or the cable going to it. If no 12V with the starter cable disconnected, then the problem is in the starter relay or the wiring going to it. That could be all the way back to the ignition switch.

There is a fuseable link in the ignition circuit. That is a wire of a smaller gauge that is intended to burn up to prevent a fire in the case of an extreme short. I don't remember if it is part of the starter circuit or not. But something else to look into. If it has burned, the insulation will be bubbled. These are a short (4 or 6 inch) piece that is in the wiring. There are a few, for different circuits. This is more of an fyi in case you haven't come across that stuff before.

Is this car pretty much stock, like factory alternator, gauges, etc? If not, that could be another avenue to pursue. I wasn't thinking non stock from your first post, but there are things that can be done wrong that makes the car run after the ignition switch is turned off from a feedback thru the alternator. If it is stock ignore all this.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2016, 02:34:53 PM »
I'm glad you like electrical lol. I do have aa dvm and a test light, will have to check that next. What I do know about the car is:

Not the original engine, this one comes from an 84 ranger 2.3

Wiring is original however, even the seatbelt interlock sytem.
As well as the rest of the car including the front tires lol.
Someone had attempted to install equis gauges, badly I might add.
And they had also rig some sort of push and toggle system to start the car. All of this was one giant rats nest of wires and naked splices.
The interlock system has both relays still but has been bypassed at the reset switch. The ignition switch is new, but the key cylinder is not.
Buzzer works, dome light works and now all exterior lights work. You can jump the starter relay and it will start but I fried the last one I did that too. And I have run a wire from the starter relay to a button with the constant power (yellow) wire, and it would start just wouldn't turn off.
So far that's all I know....

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2016, 04:25:49 PM »
So checked the starter side of relay, I get 12v with key in start. I also get 12v with key not in ignition at all.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2016, 04:56:28 PM »
hmmm. That last thing you posted is saying there is A) something causing the solenoid to be turned on all the time, or B) the solenoid itself is shorted.

You said you replaced it already, correct? Doesn't mean the new one isn't bad though.

Disconnect all the wires and cables from it, remembering to mark them or take a picture so you know where they go back. Using the ohms function of the meter measure from the battery post side of the solenoid to the starter side. Should be an open, infinite resistance. If it is then the solenoid itself isn't shorted. If you get something in the mega ohms range, same thing. If it reads a few or less ohms there is a short (it is stuck in the on position or an internal short). Whatever it reads let us know. If you don't know how to do this just ask.

Not knowing what you know about this stuff, here is some info.
The solenoid is just a relay.There are two types. Normally open and Normally closed. That means when no power is applied a normally open relay is open, and the normally closed is closed. When power is applied the normally open becomes closed (completing the circuit) and the normally closed becomes open (the circuit no longer will conduct). The hot (battery) side is normally not connected to the starter side. But when you put the key in the start  position, the wire going to the little connector causes the relay to be turned on, causing the hot and starter sides to be connected.

Would it be possible for you to take and post a picture of the relay/solenoid showing the wiring, including the cables? That would be a big help to make sure it isn't something simple like a wire in the wrong place.

Again, I am assuming you know nothing about this stuff.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2016, 05:04:25 PM »
Follow up question since I don't know this.

You said the engine is from an 84 Ranger. What style starter does it have? What I mean is does it look like the old Ford style, or a Chevy with a solenoid attached to the starter itself?

The reason I am asking is the two types are wired completely different. The original Pinto starter ( and hence all the wiring) is for the old Ford style.

I think the 84 should still be the original style, but it could have been changed by a PO (previous owner).

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2016, 05:49:39 PM »
. The starter is the old ford style no solenoid. I disconnected all the wires and cables and checked it on ohms and well, got nothing, meter never changed. I even checked the meter to be sure. So if I'm understanding correctly, does this mean the relay is bad? As far a wiring goes, the starter is wired to the right side post, positive battery is wired to other post which is closest to it. Start wire is on left front small post and run and accessories wire is on right small post. Yellow continuous power wire is also on left side big post with positive battery cable. I did notice though that the yellow wire connection looks like a melted fusible link rubber end.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2016, 05:50:59 PM »
O, and the other small wire right side, goes to the ignition coil.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2016, 06:02:55 PM »
The wiring looks good, did you do that?

Anyway, I see a possible issue if I am seeing it right. It looks like the blue wire from the S terminal is looped to the I terminal. Am I seeing it right? The one cable is blocking part of the view so I am not positive.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2016, 06:10:28 PM »
Yeah that's my handy work. No the cable is blocking the view, two separate wires, both going into the harness that is just behind the relay.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2016, 06:20:53 PM »
OK, darn it. That would have been too simple.

As far as the test you did with the meter, did you check the meter by touching the two leads together and the reading went to zero more or less? If so, then the solenoid is good from that stand point.

So we are back to there being something wrong with the wiring harness. Could possibly be the starter, but not likely given your symptoms.

Do you have the wiring diagrams for this?  I do have a laminated wiring diagram I got off of Ebay, but don't know where it is at the moment. I'll try to find it.
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2016, 06:24:10 PM »
I have one someone off here gave me, but it doesn't include the interlock system. I'll see if I can post it

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2016, 06:35:30 PM »
Ok, so it won't let me post images now. Anyone now how, maybe I missed something. On an Android phone.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2016, 06:39:14 PM »
Here it is

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2016, 06:40:41 PM »
I may have to email it if you want. It's a pdf file so I had to screen shot it. Kinda fuzzy though

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2016, 06:57:38 PM »
I was more concerned if you had one or not. Hard to do with one, almost impossible without.

If you disconnect the starter cable, do you still have 12V on that connector on the solenoid all the time, or only when you have the key in the ON position? Same question but with first the S wire removed, and then with the I wires removed? And then with both S and I removed? I'm trying to find a way to narrow down where you have to look for problems in the harness.

You said the thing was a bit hacked up. Are you sure all the hacks are undone? I am not familiar enough with the seatbelt interlock, as I just totally removed that from mine. I wouldn't think that bypassing it could cause what you are seeing. But???

And fyi, I probably won't be online after tonight until Friday. So if I don't respond don't think I have abandoned you.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2016, 09:12:04 PM »
Ok, I'll continue on it tomorrow and post the findings for when you're able to get back on.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2016, 02:09:56 PM »
Well, I will be online more than I had thought from now on. Lost the job. Oh, well.
Maybe we can get this car fixed sooner.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2016, 06:18:56 PM »
Sorry to hear about the job, we'll disconnected the starter and don't have any volts.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2016, 06:28:31 PM »
Without the starter wire the I post also gets no volts. However the s post gets 12 v.

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2016, 07:08:06 PM »
I think you may have misunderstood me, which is common. Just ask my wife.  ;D

I meant to remove those wires, and check the starter cable post with the key on and off.

So let me try it this way.

1. Disconnect starter cable from solenoid. All other wires still connected.
Does the starter cable lug have 12VDC with the key on? Should be 12VDC.
Does the starter cable lug have 12VDC with the key off? Should be 0VDC.

2. With the starter cable still off, remove all the wires from the I connector.
Does the starter cable lug have 12VDC with the key on? Should be 0VDC.
Does the starter cable lug have 12VDC with the key off? Should be 0VDC.

3. With the starter cable and the I connector wires still off, remove the wire from the S connector.
Does the starter cable lug have 12VDC with the key on? Should be 0VDC.
Does the starter cable lug have 12VDC with the key off? Should be 0VDC.

4. With everything above still disconnected,
Does the I lug have 12VDC with the key on? Should be 0VDC.
Does the I lug have 12VDC with the key off? Should be 0VDC.

5. With everything above still disconnected,
Does the S lug have 12VDC with the key on? Should be 0VDC.
Does the S lug have 12VDC with the key off? Should be 0VDC.

Let me know what the results are. Should only take a few minutes, took longer to type than it will to test.

Oh, you probably already did this, but make sure the mounting bracket (part of the solenoid) has a good clean connection to the body. That is the ground for all of this, and if it doesn't have a good ground all sorts of weird things can happen. And you said this was an engine swap, so make sure that there is at least one ground cable (braided or whatever) going from the engine block to the body/subframe. I run another starter type battery cable from the point on the block where the battery negative goes to somewhere on the subframe, wherever there is a convenient hold for a nut/bolt. But one of those braided wire ground cables is fine. I just like overkill.  8)

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2016, 07:35:07 PM »
With the starter cable disconnected the starter cable lug has no volts with key in start and off. With the I wire disconnected, it still has zero volts in both positions and with S wire disconnected it does as well.
Ground is clean and has a braided ground from block to chasis.
The only thing that sticks out to me is that with no starter cable connected there is no voltage on the lug for reason. Hooked up and the voltage comes back with key in start and with key not in cylinder.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2016, 07:38:15 PM »
S lug has volts however, both key in start and key off.

Offline Jon Britton

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2016, 10:08:12 PM »
I think I may see a problem, the yellow wire that powers the ignition switch has a fusible link right where it connects to battery side of starter relay. It looks blown, could this possibly be a factor?

Offline russosborne

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Re: 1974 pinto coupe weird starting issues
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2016, 10:32:21 PM »
Ok, that is not good. The S lug (small one next to the I, 16 or so gauge wire, correct?) should only have voltage with both the wire connected AND the key in the Start position. Is the voltage on it without the wired being connected there, or only with the wire connected, or both? If it is there without being connected then the solenoid is bad somehow. Internal short most likely. If only when the wire is connected there is a wiring problem somewhere in that circuit. This also could be the key switch being bad, where it still makes contact to the Start circuit. In fact that is where I would recommend you try next. Try to trace out the wiring with that diagram and see if the S position on the key switch is on all the time. You should be able to check it at the ignition switch you just changed out. Use your old one to find the wire locations, might help make it easier. ??? At least it is not under the dash.

 Do you still have the old solenoid? If so, do those tests with it installed and see if you get the same results.

"So checked the starter side of relay, I get 12v with key in start. I also get 12v with key not in ignition at all." and also "With the starter cable disconnected the starter cable lug has no volts with key in start and off." This last is strange. You should have the 12VDC on the starter side of the relay regardless of if the starter cable is connected or not.

Maybe like I said above it is the keyed switch in the column. that would explain most all of this stuff. I thought there was an adjustment on these, but I am not seeing it in the manual.
But then this is not being my best week.

Russ

Do you have the factory service manual for this car? Here is one place to get it if you don't. A Haynes or Chilton's won't really cut it.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-Ford-Lincoln-Mercury-Shop-Service-Repair-Manual-CD-OEM-Mechanic-Guide-/130741225454?fits=Year%3A1974|Make%3AFord|Model%3APinto&hash=item1e70c8c7ee:g:Yz4AAOSwB4NWvA MD&vxp=mtr
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.