Author Topic: 72 V8 project - STARTER questions (Read 3263 times)

guitarguy · « **on:** November 21, 2010, 05:06:38 PM »

Hi all, just scored a 72 driver with a 302/C4/8"... the starter sounds horrible, a gnashing wiwiwiwi and sometimes when hot it sounds like a run down battery... slow turning. It was recently (last week) replaced by the previous owner. Here's what I know: engine is a 72, flywheel is a Mustang II. Starter is smaller than a 72 starter, he said it's like an 84 would be. I've been a Mopar guy, used to weird sounding starters but this can't be normal and I don't know the ins & outs of Ford swapping yet. Any help, links, thoughts greatly appreciated. A V8 Pinto was on my bucket list, and now one sits in my driveway. :lol: ~Scott

STREETREBEL · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2010, 06:59:27 PM »

MOPAR. Oh Yeah!

bigbill · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2010, 09:37:23 AM »

The flywheel and starter MUST both be for a Mustang 2. In fact the transmission, flywheel, starter, and even the oilpan are made for each other and only found in a mustang 2 None will work without the other. BIG BILL

71hotrodpinto · « **Reply #3 on:** December 14, 2010, 09:43:32 PM »

Hey there, any ford 302 starter Auto Should work. I used a HP after-market CSR starter with my mustang II bell, converter, and flexplate. It fits great and is powerfull. Best of all there are replacement parts for it should anything go wrong. Seeing how they are designed for High Compression Race engines, its kind of overkill for my mild 8.5to1 302. However I like overkill :lol: . I also like the design because this one puts the body of the starter up over the cross member. I needed it because i lowered the steering rack and the engine 1.5"
So the stock starter and even the mini would have come close or even hit.

Anyways I would check the flexplate to see if the teeth are chewed up. A new starter isnt going to fix the grinding sound if the teeth are screwed!
GL
http://www.csr-performance.com/shop/product.da/csr105p-ford-small-block-platinum-series-starter
Yes they are hellish expensive considering the car but like i said i like overkill. LOL

Heres a new used one on ebay for reasonable cost. (no its not mine i live in calif ! LOL)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CSI-Ford-Hi-Torque-Starter-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3cb353bb1cQQitemZ260706646812QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts#ht_500wt_1182

High_Horse · « **Reply #4 on:** December 26, 2010, 10:18:54 PM »

Even though this thread has been up for awhile I am going to slip in my 50 cents about Ford starters. Here goes....When I was young I bought cheap starters as I grew older and more experienced I bought the max. Warranty re manufactured starters. If the starter is not assembled correctly it is going to be a pain in the butt rattletrap. Point 1...If the Bendix is not all the way out when power contact is made then the pinion is going to RIP butt on the flywheel. Point 2...If the pivot fork is not pushed together adequately into the Bendix/pinion assembly thrust way then there is a sloppy rattle action and if it pops out then the starter will want to keep cranking the engine. Point 3...If the front and rear bearings do not have adequate lube then the stator will want to do a whirlpool kind of a resonant viberation conniption that makes the whole starter action wanna splode. Point 4...If the end play is to much then when the Bendix is shooting out the armature is shooting in and there is a clunk that does not help.
So I, DO NOT just pull a starter from the box and stick it in the car unless I know exactly what is in it and how that starter was assembled. Here it is in a brief.......Pu ll starter apart,noting exactly how it came apart...add lube to brush end bearing and put plate on squashing out excess...wipe away excess check end play washer is present...add grease to other end bearing, excess is OK...lube helical flutes under Bendix,excess won't matter,work that puppy a bit to make sure good and slippy...Close that pivot fork up to to have a nice fit in that thrust disk...Check for excess slop in the pivot fork pivot pin,lube that to. Assemble noting that the pivot fork is a little bit harder to put together then it was to take apart....Work the electro magnetic contact trigger core and see where it makes the starter contact when all the way pusshed in. It should not make the contact till the pinion is pushed to 3/4 all the way out at least... Put core cover and brush cover back on with gaskets properly positioned,making a good gasket if need be to keep water and moisture out. This practice by me, alone, has saved numerous bs starter problems over the years. This opinion was meant for stock starters and not hp aftermarket (csr).
If this note helps just one person then I am happy. Who is the boss, us or the starters.

High_Horse

bigbill · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2011, 12:16:20 PM »

I think I was not clear enough in my earlier post. If you use a MM2 flywheel you will find that it is MUCH smaller in diameter than all of the other 302 flywheels and on a MM2 the oil pan had to have place made in the side for the starter to tuck into. Therefore, if you try to use a normal size bellhousing and a small flywheel the starter drive teeth and the flywheel teeth WILL NOT mesh properly and it makes that awful grinding sound. BIG BILL

guitarguy · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2011, 05:42:37 PM »

UPDATE: Starter went out. Just made the whirring, not engaging. Removed pass. mount & jacked up engine, removed starter. Teeth on flywheel from what I can see are there and decent, a little chewed on the very fronts. That's probably what I was hearing.

Scored the cheap CSR ebay deal starter, put it on, and no matter what I do it's an inch too long . I can't see any room under there to rotate it. If I let the engine back down the end of the starter won't clear the crossmember. I'm running manifolds and space is tight, and this space issue with the CSR may be just my particular car's conversion.

Been reading up on "Mustang II specific" parts, 141 tooth flywheels, manual and auto starters, etc etc and I'm more confused now than ever. The starter that came off is for an 84 Mustang and it looks like it was only engaging the edge. But it fit. Is there a later smaller one?

Can someone give me a part number of a Ford 302 Automatic starter to ask for? I trust YOU guys more than parts counter people and / or their computer lists. I can't afford $400 starters, I just want one that fits and doesn't sound like a garbage disposal chewing on a saw blade.

Thanks!

BTW CSR is a great company for tech support, the guy on the phone really knew his starters!

71hotrodpinto · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2011, 10:27:26 PM »

Aww Crap that i doenst fit. Id say that i cant see how it wouldnt but nevertheless you tried and it wont. Do you happent to have a picture of the starter you bought?
They can be indexed 180, but if the solenoid is on top then, thats how mine is and im stumped. SIGH! I feel bad. I have Mustang II headers, the engine is lower by at least an inch, and my CSR starter clears by "miles" everywhere. Like it was almost made to clear the cross-member.
On the other hand maybe you have the " CSR Mini Starter"? That starter i can see not fitting.
Well i hope you can put that back up on eBay and get your money back.
Robert

guitarguy · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2011, 01:27:07 PM »

Ehh, I'll do OK on the CSR. I just want to drive my car, you know? I guess it's one of the mysteries of the world and a total crapshoot as to whether the starter you get will fit or engage the teeth properly and not sound like gnashing teeth. Even though a bunch of factory parts are used, these are still hot rods where big stuff gets shoehorned in where it wasn't designed to go by guys with welders and their own ideas. Mine is a 72 with a stock firewall so I'm betting my engine's sitting an inch farther forward at least. The CSR looks like the one pictures; it's an inch longer than the starter I took off.

Have you run yours in the quarter? What do you have for subframe connectors & traction bars?

High Horse thank you for that ~ definitely procedure worth considering.

71pintoracer · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2011, 09:18:50 PM »

This is a puzzle to be sure! But if your firewall has not been modified, I'd wager you may be 2" forward. I have a t-5 in mine and I used the stock Pinto starter.
I have subframe connectors and traction masters, I've run a best of 12.07 on street tires, taking off in second gear and speed shifting at 6800 RPM.

71hotrodpinto · « **Reply #10 on:** January 22, 2011, 02:05:31 PM »

Hey Guitar Guy, could you possibly take some pictures of the starter area with the CSR in it and showing the hitting area? I know its a pain cause of flash and being so low etc. Im just real curious how your setup is, well , "setup"!
My engine placement is not changed more than 3/8"backward in the for and aft with a stock placed fire wall. Its just down a bit and actually closer to the crossmember. So if I had a stock starter id have to cut a dip in the crossmember to get it to clear.
Im not questioning you, im just stumped why it doesn't fit for you. Maybe your engine is really low? I don't know. I wish i could go and check it out and see and help you.

guitarguy · « **Reply #11 on:** January 22, 2011, 09:46:41 PM »

Well, I can tell you I run a stock hood so it must be sitting low, and 2" forward wouldn't surprise me. The CSR is out and the engine is back down, not really inclined to get under there again with a starter that hits the crossmember. Lemme see about some pics of the area. Another question mark is - are the teeth different on a "manual" starter vs. an "automatic" one? Why was the starter that was in there only engaging the edges of the teeth? Previous owner drove it daily for 3 years with the starter sounding fine. It went out, it was replaced under warranty by the same part number, and that's the gnashing sounding one that went out on me weeks later.

I know my trans, flywheel, bellhousing etc. are Mustang II, and that in order to use a stock Mustang II starter (bigger diameter than the "84 Mustang" starters that've been in it) you have to pull the engine to get it in. Not going there.

ALL of the help is appreciated... I'm just kinda frustrated and the car's down 'til I figure this out. I wanna drive the little bean!

Pinstang74 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2011, 01:25:46 AM »

You may want to check out a new Ford Motor Sports Catalog. The 302s need a specific flywheel as to year ( weight and balance). The diameter will also give you the correct teeth. You should also check out if you need any shimms in the form of a thin metal spacer between the starter and the bell housing. Sometime this will make the difference between a grinding or smooth like new starting sound !!!

stormy69 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 12, 2011, 11:08:31 PM »

later 5.0's (1990 iirc) have factory mini starts and dont have the large offset of the csr, they arent as pretty either lol. they are light and cheap...

vonkysmeed · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2011, 01:16:06 AM »

Quote from: bigbill on December 08, 2010, 09:37:23 AM

The flywheel and starter MUST both be for a Mustang 2. In fact the transmission, flywheel, starter, and even the oilpan are made for each other and only found in a mustang 2 None will work without the other. BIG BILL

Not true, I am using a flywheel, trans and starter from an 82 mustang GT with no issues other than pulling the motor mount to change it out

bigbill · « **Reply #15 on:** March 21, 2011, 11:31:27 PM »

I think you did not understand what I meant so let me make it easier to understand I used a 5.0 mustang flywheel, starter, and bellhousing on my pinto wagon and it works perfectly. If you use the little bitty flywheel from a V-8 Mustang II then you MUST use the starter and bellhousing for a Mustang II or the teeth on the starter will NEVER NEVER mesh with the teeth on the flywheel. It simply can't work any other way. BIG BILL

Fehrion_sit · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2012, 09:38:46 PM »

since were talking about starters and fly wheels, if i have a 289 (1967) and am bolting a t-5 to it, would i use the mustang two flywheel, starter clutch ect ?

RSM · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2012, 10:37:16 PM »

The 289 and the 302 balance differently. Just make sure you have the correct balancer/flywheel combination. I ran into this when I had my Foxbody. I blew the 302 and built a 347 which balances like a 289 since they use a 289 crank. I couldn't use the 302 balancer. And I think the 289 used a 3 bolt belt pulley and the 302 used a 4 bolt...it's been a few years and i don't remember exactly. My point is if you use the wrong balancer/flywheel combo you wind up with a bad vibration. I worked on a Chevy Suburban many years ago where a guy had used a 400 flywheel on a 350. Had a terrible vibration. Took a couple of us a while before we had realized what the guy had done. We knocked the weights off of the flex plate...vibrat ion gone. The 350 balances internally and the 400 balanced externally.

Current Classifieds

Author Topic: 72 V8 project - STARTER questions (Read 3263 times)