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dga57

April 14, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
Me too, Mary Ellen!  Good night! :)
 

blupinto

April 14, 2014, 11:31:48 PM
I'd better say good night, John-Boy. I'm on fumes.  :)

dga57

April 14, 2014, 11:31:18 PM
Cooter was cool!
 

blupinto

April 14, 2014, 11:29:00 PM
That's awesome! I had a bit of a crush on him too.  :)

dga57

April 14, 2014, 11:27:31 PM
There WAS one here... could be gone now if it's not mentioned on his website.  He comes through here every once in a while driving a General Lee... usually to help raise money for some charity or another.  I actually saw him out on I-81 one time.
 

blupinto

April 14, 2014, 11:24:51 PM
The best I can do is Barking Spider noises. lol Thans to my older brother and bad influence in my childhood. lol
 

blupinto

April 14, 2014, 11:23:45 PM
There IS one in VA!? His website didn't mention it! Awww man! It sounds fun! Plus, Ben Jones has a, ahem... garage band. lol I want to see and hear them!

dga57

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I can't whistle period... through my teeth or otherwise! :(

dga57

April 14, 2014, 11:21:24 PM
Cooter actually lives in Virginia.  There's a Cooter's Place in Sterling along with the two you mentioned.  They are fun!
 

blupinto

April 14, 2014, 11:20:20 PM
What got cut off was I hate being broke with tired cars!I want to travel again. Yes, in a Pinto!  ;D
 

blupinto

April 14, 2014, 11:19:18 PM
Bless her heart! lol I never could do that... even when I had teeth! lol
 

blupinto

April 14, 2014, 11:18:10 PM
I want to go back east again!!! I would LOVE to visit Cooter's Place in Nashville or Gatlinburg (I think that's where the other one is). In the next several weeks, Rick Hurst (Deputy Cletus), Sonny Shroyer (Deputy Enos - another of my Hazzard County crushes!), and Catherine Bach (Daisy Duke) will be

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Author Topic: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)  (Read 9648 times)

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Offline Starliner

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Bill, (and everyone else of course)

I admire your knowledge in Pinto handling.   
On another post you mention moving the lower A-arm mounting points to improve the roll center.

What recommendation s would you have to make a 74-80 Pinto low & mean while being the best handling car possible (not dirt). 
I want a canyon carver & track car with a 4 cylinder Cosworth YBT.   I like the idea of lowered spindles versus lowered springs.  Give me your thoughts on that too.

It would be a real crazy project to weld up some towers to install a McPherson strut system like a Merkur!

Thanks
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1979 Pinto 2300 - Sold!
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1987 Audi 5000 S Quattro - The snowmobile
1973 Volvo 1800 ES wagon -  my project car
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Offline Starliner

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Re: Paging 77TurboPinto - Front suspension question
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2007, 09:16:31 AM »
Also throw in some rear end pointers.  Anyone ever added any rear control arms or Panhard rod to an 8 or 9 inch Ford.  Other ideas?   Not looking to drag race launch, want cornering. 
1973 Pinto 1600 - Sold!  
1979 Pinto 2300 - Sold!
1984 Audi 5000 Avant - 60,000 original miles
1987 Audi 5000 S Quattro - The snowmobile
1973 Volvo 1800 ES wagon -  my project car
1976 Mustang II - Wifey's new toy

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: Paging 77TurboPinto - Front suspension question
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2007, 09:04:29 AM »
Thank you.

First off, do you want a "car" that handles, or a "Pinto" that handles? If you want a "car", DON'T use a Pinto.

Please understand that there are ALWAYS trade-offs when it comes to performance. If you want to make the car "look" a certain way, it might not handle 'better' that way. It is ALL about balance, and what you want the car to do (I.E., things that help the car turn might hurt it get going from a standing start).

IMHO: Shorter/wider/sticker tires will give you more improvement than "lowering", or most any other SINGLE thing. Get the tires you plan to run BEFORE doing ANY "lowering" to the car. The stock rear springs have a rate that is too stiff, by removing leafs, you can dial them in and lower the car at the same time. Leaf springs are not easy to 'dial-in'. I reccamend fully disassembling, inspecting, cleaning, and the use of motorcycle chain lube between the leafs. If there is dirt or rust INSIDE them, it could cause binding that will hinder performance. If you tune-in the leafs, you should keep the weight of the car off the leafs if you plan to park it for any length of time. Performance shocks are important, but very hard to find for a Pinto; you might need to modify your car to fit ones made for other cars. A panhard bar is a very good idea, however, there is not much room under the car to put one so you will need to be creative; be sure it is installed on a reinforced part of the floor, AND that it is parallel with the ground at normal ride height. An 8" rear is more than enough, and IMHO, the 9" will just add extra weight. The use of lowering blocks in the rear should be kept to a minimum as they tend to induce wheel hop, and roll-steer; although roll steer can be helpful in setting up a car for a circle track (where the turns are ALWAYS the same), for most 'road' style driving it can be too unpredictable. A large front sway bar will help overcome the low roll center that Pintos have, provided the lower control arms angle DOWN from the crossmember, even if only slightly. Once they go the the other way (up to the wheels), you loose neg. camber very quickly. A front bar that is too big can flex the body, and a rear bar might need to be added to balance the car. Relocating the front lower control arm inner mount points UP 3/4" will improve the roll center, but it requires trimming of the arm and a little work to the crossmember. A full cage will help stiffen the chassis; a stiff chassis will help you dial in the suspension. Cutting coil springs will INCREASE their rate (stiffer) as well as shorter. For the car: lighter is BETTER. Get a full front end alignment after ANY change/changes to to car. Poly bushings are a great idea too.

Changes that you make will effect how the car handles, sometimes good, sometimes bad, but driving the car on a closed or private road after making changes will help reduce the chances of damaging you, others and your car.

If you plan to run or race in any form, check the rule books before making any changes to your car.

Again, a Pinto can not be MADE to handle as well as some other cars do in full stock form without MAJOR time and money. If your goals are to have a good handling "CAR", a Pinto should not be your first choice.

Bill
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Offline fomogo

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Re: Paging 77TurboPinto - Front suspension question
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2007, 10:22:07 AM »
*copy, paste, save*


Jim
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Offline tony v

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Re: Paging 77TurboPinto - Front suspension question
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2007, 10:32:39 AM »
well, you could start with a kit from p-s-t.com. they sell the kits for the pinto and mustang. if you go with the kit, be sure to groove the inside of the bushings and install a zerk fitting to keep em' greased up. and to stiffen up the lower control arm. flip them upside down and weld a plate to the bottom of the arm to "cap" them. it will reduce the twisting of the formed arm by putting the cap on the bottom of the arm. a larger sway bar will work but like what was said earlier, if it is too large, it will flex the body out. me, i would go with the kit , weld the plates in the lower arm and connect the frame. and try that. if its not stiff enough go with a cage.  hope this helped at lease a little.  tony v :peace:
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Offline Starliner

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Re: Paging 77TurboPinto - Front suspension question
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2007, 01:14:28 AM »
Thanks a ton for all your time & information... Yep, "copy, paste, save!"
1973 Pinto 1600 - Sold!  
1979 Pinto 2300 - Sold!
1984 Audi 5000 Avant - 60,000 original miles
1987 Audi 5000 S Quattro - The snowmobile
1973 Volvo 1800 ES wagon -  my project car
1976 Mustang II - Wifey's new toy

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: Paging 77TurboPinto - Front suspension question
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 10:41:24 AM »
I added a few things to my reply.

Bill
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Offline GFPRACING

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Re: Paging 77TurboPinto - Front suspension question
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2007, 06:32:49 AM »
I LOVE PINTO'S
HOW HARD IS IT TO MAKE 1  OF MY PINTO'S TURBO CHARGE

Offline nvrstock

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 10:40:52 PM »
Someone told me that putting mustang II front suspension on the pinto made it better. is that true? If it is what years/motor mustang II should i use?

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 10:57:38 PM »
Someone told me that putting mustang II front suspension on the pinto made it better. is that true? If it is what years/motor mustang II should i use?


Mustang II and 1974-80 Pinto share the same componets except the strut rod on the Mii has a different angle.
 From Pintony

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 06:04:49 AM »

Mustang II and 1974-80 Pinto share the same componets except the strut rod on the Mii has a different angle.
 From Pintony

Plus: the anti-sway bars are different, and the springs MIGHT be different as well.


Bill
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Pintony

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 08:38:35 AM »
Plus: the anti-sway bars are different, and the springs MIGHT be different as well.


Bill
Good Point there Bill!!!
 From Pintony

Offline 71HANTO

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2008, 10:09:55 AM »
The difference in the front springs is the length of the spring unweighted. The 71-73 springs are 8" and the "74 up Pinto /mustang II" springs are 9.5-11.5". The way they mount on the perches is simular. I cut mustang II V8 springs to an unweighted length of 6.75" for my 71. It sounds radical but the V8 springs will not compress nearly as much under weight as the weak, soft originals. Especially given the reduced race weight up front (aluminum head, battery relocated, etc).
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Offline nvrstock

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2008, 12:02:41 PM »
so the only two things that you would actually want from a mustang II are the sway bars and V8 springs?

Offline bobscat

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2008, 12:25:43 PM »
I have a mustang II sway bar on my car, it bolted right on.  Granted, mine is from a v8 car, but I needed that because it contours around the oil pan on my 302

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2008, 01:55:46 PM »
I have a mustang II sway bar on my car, it bolted right on.  Granted, mine is from a v8 car, but I needed that because it contours around the oil pan on my 302

Yes, it will 'bolt on', but the end links are put at an angle and they tend to snap or pop the rubber out and wear on the bar.

(ask me how I know)


Bill
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Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2008, 01:59:18 PM »
so the only two things that you would actually want from a mustang II are the sway bars and V8 springs?

http://www.fordpinto.com/smf/index.php/topic,6909.0.html


Bill
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Offline gearhead440

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2008, 08:07:38 AM »
With all of this good information on hand, I thought I would ask the all-knowing assembly.  I like the idea of reinforcing the lower control arms with some plate steel.  As far as the upper control arms go, there are now after market tubular UCA's available.  I'm sure they would provide some "help" as they would not flex as much as the stock UCA's but would they be worth the cost?  I'll use the PST poly kit, weld tle LCA's as instructed, and use V6 with A/C springs (very similar to V8 MII springs but shouldnt be quite as stiff) with my V8 swap :read:.  Any improvement in handling would be appreciated but if the cost outweighs the benefit, I'll stick with the stock UCA's.  Any thoughts or experience?
Thanks!
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2008, 12:24:03 PM »
I looked at the Mustang II interchange link Bill posted.  I was wondering if the Mustang II sway bar is the same diameter as the Pinto's.  I couldn't tell from te picture.  If it is then I don't think it would be an advantage.  The longer bar would just flex more and effectively be softer.  Anyway, I'm just curious.
Tom

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2008, 01:04:53 PM »
I have looked at all the front bars I have ever had. What I found is the 'regular' Pinto bars are .885" and the C/W (maybe regular wagon too) bars are .915. I have been told the Mustang IIs have one of 2 bars, a 1" and a smaller one; I have the 1" in the photo.

Aside from putting the endlinks at an awckard angle (and snapping them), the MII bar even with the longer arms gives my car a better feel.

I have a 1" bar on my Bobcat auto-X car. It is neither a Pinto or MII bar, but it was wider than the MII bar. I used a pipe bender to bring the ends in to make it the correct width. I plan to do the same with my MII bar and put it back on the yellow car.


Bill
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Offline electrabishi

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2008, 01:23:21 AM »
Great thread everyone.  I have a little different question.  The Electric Crazyhorse Pinto dragster has rear springs that are 2" taller and a lot stiffer to take the weight of the 850 lbs of batteries.  It hops the rear end up 3" higher than the sagging stock springs that were on it.  When I had the smaller BFG Drag Radials that were only 24" tall the car only seemed slightly nose down.  Under high power starts on the street where I might not be headed exactly straight I would notice a very slight stumble one direction but never when coming off the power hard.  Now with the 10" wide Hoosiers that are 28" tall the thing will just about jerk me off the road when accelerating and jerk me into oncoming traffic if I let off hard.  On the drag strip it does not pull either way on the launch at all. But during the shift and even worse when I let off at the end of the track it jerks something fierce.  I don't want to take it to the shop where they will give me a stock alignment.  What extra adjustments to the front end are recommended for a Pinto dragster thats jacked up in the rear?  The rear end is a 9" running a Detroit Locker and CalTracs bars. 

The car can be seen on this video

Mike

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2008, 07:21:56 AM »
Great thread everyone.  I have a little different question.  The Electric Crazyhorse Pinto dragster has rear springs that are 2" taller and a lot stiffer to take the weight of the 850 lbs of batteries.  It hops the rear end up 3" higher than the sagging stock springs that were on it.  When I had the smaller BFG Drag Radials that were only 24" tall the car only seemed slightly nose down.  Under high power starts on the street where I might not be headed exactly straight I would notice a very slight stumble one direction but never when coming off the power hard.  Now with the 10" wide Hoosiers that are 28" tall the thing will just about jerk me off the road when accelerating and jerk me into oncoming traffic if I let off hard.  On the drag strip it does not pull either way on the launch at all. But during the shift and even worse when I let off at the end of the track it jerks something fierce.  I don't want to take it to the shop where they will give me a stock alignment.  What extra adjustments to the front end are recommended for a Pinto dragster thats jacked up in the rear?  The rear end is a 9" running a Detroit Locker and CalTracs bars.... 


With not driving the car myself I would have to guess that a big part of the problem with street driving the car is that streets are not FLAT like a dragway. Also, with the rear of the car elevated more, it changes the CASTER in the front more; this could make the car feel and act 'twitchy'. You might want to get it aligned to factory caster spec.s with the set-up you have now; it MIGHT help and it would be worth a try. Even with everything you have done, you will still have some roll-steer in the back end. I don't know much about drag racing and if a panhard bar would/could help (I know they help in cornering, but it still might help the car go strait). You could also experiment with the rear springs by changing the rates from side to side.

The increased power and weight of the car, different springs, and with the front/rear bias different from stock, the car will not act like a stock car would/could in every situation. I think you need to find a good 'middle ground' (where is it MOST important to handle well).

Bill
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2008, 03:04:32 PM »
Remember that a (well designed) street has road camber built into it.  That is what allows rain to drain to the side.  With all your weight, the locked rear and the traction bars they may be reacting to the design of the street itself.  I'd say to look at the relationship of the traction bars to the springs on a flat level surface and then a street.  If the snubbers look different, that might be the problem.

Be safe. BTY, I have the engine and complete system out of a Jet Industries, Electrica 007. Hope to be able to use it someday. It's the price of batteries that is killing me!
Tom

Offline electrabishi

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Re: Front suspension question (Pinto handling and suspention questions)
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2008, 10:55:37 PM »
Thanks for the tips.  I just got the front end aligned a couple days ago.  It helped a little.  But it still has a little torque steer.  The numbers were all off, but at least they were even from side to side.  THe caster was -1.1*  (spec is +0.3 to +0.7)  With the taller springs and taller tires all they could get it back to was +0.1*.  Not quite spec, but much better.  But still have the problem.  Keith at Dutchmans Motorsports recommended checking the tire diameters since any variance between them would cause te Detroit to pull a little harder on the slower tire.  For example if one had a little more air pressure changing its rolling resistance. He recommended swapping the tires as a first test.  Then playing with the pressures to ensure they are as even as possible.  Mine is doing this on the street and the strip.  But getting the front end squared away has helped significantly.  I may even put a little taller tires on the front to bring the caster closer to +0.3*.  Might have to lower the rear a tad too to get the angle.  With the shorter 24" BFG Drag radials in back the car did not exhibit this problem.

Mike


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