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Author Topic: 2.8l V6 HEADERS  (Read 7801 times)

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Offline 75BOBCAT

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2.8l V6 HEADERS
« on: November 05, 2010, 06:00:05 PM »
I'm sick of searching for a set of headers for my Bobcat, it's frustrating knowing that my exhaust is still restricted by the heat shield.  I recently purchased and applied some goodies for her, clearly a header would just knock my socks off if I could put one on.  As far as I'm concerned, the 2.8l came from the factory in Germany and people tear them out of mustang II's for 400 horsepower builds.  I've heard of 1 individual that salvaged an engine from a stang and swapped it into an old cougar, sick results.  Where are the headers someone please tell me?
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Offline Fred Morgan

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2010, 06:41:23 PM »
Check with pintopower  Alberto there is a chance he could have.  Fred   :)
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Offline rctinker

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2010, 10:21:36 PM »
Let me know if you find some!  :o  Guy I talk to on a mustang page said many years ago he put a set of hooker headers on a 2.8 pinto he had. I have looked and have found nothing.
Tink
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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2010, 12:19:39 AM »
I'm Still looking my self for a set of those but dont know that I will ever get to put them in

I'm sick of searching for a set of headers for my Bobcat, it's frustrating knowing that my exhaust is still restricted by the heat shield.  I recently purchased and applied some goodies for her, clearly a header would just knock my socks off if I could put one on.  As far as I'm concerned, the 2.8l came from the factory in Germany and people tear them out of mustang II's for 400 horsepower builds.  I've heard of 1 individual that salvaged an engine from a stang and swapped it into an old cougar, sick results.  Where are the headers someone please tell me?

Offline dick1172762

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2010, 12:06:47 PM »
They show up on e-bay about once a year. LOL
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Offline Norman Bagi

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 11:40:39 PM »
Just keep looking, I got a set I purchased along with the entire parts kit to rebuild the engine.  I am going to do it this winter. I hope you find them, just keep looking, found mine on e-bay.

Offline Pintopower

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 11:15:56 AM »
I have a set of Hooker super comps. They are with Skunky right now getting remade. He plans on making half a dozen. Email him for info. I still say that they are garbage on a 2.8 with US compression. My manifolds made 10 hp more than after when I installed the hookers. I have said this a million times, when your car starts to over heat standing still and you loose bottom end, you will toss them just like I did.
 
Email Paul at:
skunkyp56@comcast.net
 
Good luck and I will say I told you so.
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

Offline rctinker

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2010, 12:42:56 AM »
So your opoiun is that headers on a 2.8 actually robs horse power? What about putting on a 4 barrel intake and a holey 390? Have heard that Aerostar vans with the 2.8 have sorta header type manifolds that might work, just looking to dump some poundage with the exhaust manifolds. Would really like to beef this 2.8 up some. Any advice would be awsome.
Thanks, Tink
1977 Crusin Wagon when I was 16

Offline pintosopher

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 09:19:02 AM »
So your opoiun is that headers on a 2.8 actually robs horse power? What about putting on a 4 barrel intake and a holey 390? Have heard that Aerostar vans with the 2.8 have sorta header type manifolds that might work, just looking to dump some poundage with the exhaust manifolds. Would really like to beef this 2.8 up some. Any advice would be awsome.
Thanks, Tink
RC,
 Alberto's position on the headers could be based on the premise that a Smog legal V6 2.8 in a pinto stock chassis, is a no gain situation. I have tried headers on a stock Small Block Chevy with a 2 BBL carb and seen little gain. However, if the engine is choked down on the carb, manifold, or heads, and you swap out or modify these areas, look out!
 The V6 Ford Capri guys know all about this, but their cars can acommodate a different header Profile.
 
 My 2 cents..
 
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Offline Pintopower

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 11:15:25 AM »
RC,
 
I agree with Pintosopher. Bolting on headers doesn't always give you power, nor will bolting on a 4bbl. The root problem with a Cologne V6 in the US is that they have little compression. If you look up the numbers from a euro Cologne V6, you will find that they have 50% more HP in some cases (make sure you are comparing like figures, ie. net to net or gross to gross). The reason for this is not a holley 4 bbl or headers, it is compression, cam and timing. A bigger carb will burn more fuel but not give you a proportional gain in HP. Power is all about efficiency. The more efficiently an engine runs, the more HP is produced. Here is an example.
 
I have two Fiat Stradas. They are identical, including engine type, 1500CC 138A SOHC I4.
One is a US model with US cam, compression (7.1:1), carb (weber 28 dmtr).
I also imported one from Italy with all the euro engine bits: cam, compression (10.2:1), carb (weber 30/32). The both have the same intakes and exhaust manifolds, the same blocks and cranks, both have cats and stock exhaust.
 
Here are the numbers. Federal Spec Strada: 60 HP, 54 LBFT Torque.
Euro Spec Strada: 110 HP, 101 LBFT Torque.
 
Those numbers are astounding (Mind you, Fiat engines are more akin to the Cologne 2.8 than anything else Ford has made. Ford used Lancia's V4 to build the Cologne V4 which turned into the V6. It is the Italians that pioneered the V4 & V6 so the cologne had a lot of distinctly European traits).
 
If I bolted a header to the federal car, there would be no significant delta. On the Euro one, it would go up about 15 %. The reason for this increase is that the car needs to breathe more. The federal one does not because it has no compression, just like the Federal Cologne motor.
 
If you want HP, you need to do REAL engine work. Change the pistons, cam and timing. You will not need a 4bbl. Those are misconceptions of the V8 community. A holley 350 is perfect. Once you do that, THEN you can consider headers. Until then, you are burning fuel and money to get less HP. Trust me, been there, done that.
 
Go on to British Capri and Taunus forums and see what they are doing. Simple as that.
 
I know that is not the simple or cheap news you wanted to hear but itís the thermodynamic truth.
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

Offline popbumper

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 01:02:40 PM »
Pintopower:
 
  So let me ask this, then, from your analysis. I have a stock 2.3L with no upgrades. If I were to do head work ONLY (port/polish/oversized valves, better cam), but leave the stock carb/intake/exhaust in place, would I see an appreciable increase in power just from the head work?
 
What value then would a change in intake and carb provide?
 
How about headers?
 
Shave the head for better compression?
 
Knowing that the bottom end of the stock motor is reasonably robust, is there really any reason in this scenario to rebuild/upgrade the pistons/crank/etc.?
 
Trying to get the "best bang for the buck", don't want to spend a fortune on the motor but would like to see horsepower gains above the stock 86 HP.
 
Thanks!
 
Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

Offline Pintopower

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 03:44:09 PM »
Chris,
 
Nothing like getting tested. Well I started it so here goes. This is from my experience, never mind that I am a thermodynamic engineer and work on ProEngineer with FloEFD thermal software.
 
The 2.3 is a different beast than the 2.8.
 
The 2.3's displacement is pretty big for a 4 cylinder globally speaking. I have a fiat with a 850 CC 4 cyl so you can see what I'm talking about. It also has a greater stroke and higher capacity of air that needs to be removed where the 2.8 has a large bore but a tiny stroke (which give it the ability so wind up like an formula one car, relativly speaking) and has smaller bursts of air. Now the 2.3's exhaust manifold is an excellent unit. The ports are a bit tiny BUT it is essentially a cast header (unlike the 2.0). The 2.8 manifolds are not bad but certainly nothing like the 2.3's swooping shape.
 
Onto the 2.3 head work. Here is what I have done to my Pangra's in term motor (until i finish its 2.3 turbo).
It is a 74 block with a 79 head. I donít know if there are any differences but I am just stating the facts. I popped in zero deck pistons in the block and milled the head by 120 thou. This made the chamber 52 (I think) CC + the felpro gasket which was 12 CC. Then I clayed the valves to make sure there was clearance (i calculated it before but I wanted to make sure before I ruined everything). This bumped up the compression to 10.9 on paper but 10.6 in reality. Originally it was just under 7.0:1.
 
Then I bought a basic stage one cam from Esslinger. More lift and duration(i forget the numbers). It is nothing radical but i just wanted something better. I did not do any porting since I ate so much off the head already. When you mill the head, you have changed the geometry of the timing belt. This means that you need an adjustable cam pulley. Mine is advanced 4 degrees.
 
Once done, I knew that the stock HP at the flywheel was around 79 or so in 1974. When I had the stock autolite tuned (at a smog shop) and the distributor curved, the car had 105 hp at the rear wheels! That means about 130 at the flywheel! This all cost me about $400. By the way, I installed a cat on it (because they are good for the environment, period) and its CO2 output was nearly unreadable and the HC was at 18 ppm. Legal (if this car needed a smog which it does not) is 250 ppm.
 
A header would probably bump up the hp another 3-5 hp but this car has A/C so I do not want further heat loading. Once the motor needs more fuel, then I would say holley 350. I really stay away from 4bbls unless you have serious engine work and a monster cam. Then you are in the 200 hp range and the car is almost unstreetable.
 
So yea, milling the head is ok but different pistons is the right way. I take it easy with my stuff so it was fine for me. You donít need to rebuild the bottom end unless its history us unknown.
 
Best bang? Mill the head, tune the carb perfectly and curve the distributor. I have since ditched the points for an MSD unit (which I hate but gave the car noticeable gain in power), accel 8.8 mm plug wires, and a few other bits.
 
Moral of the story is, make your car run cleaner, more efficiently and tune it perfectly. Just doing that you will see massive increases in power. Headers, carbs, intakes are all things you get to AFTER you do the hard stuff.
 
Here's how you know if you did it right: You will get more power, better mileage and your car wonít stink like raw fuel like 90% of cars at car shows.
 
A lot of info there, hope I answered everything. Back to work I go.
 
   
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

Offline rctinker

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2010, 12:01:12 AM »
Ok, like you said you started it, lol  :o .
 
What would be, in your opiuion, the break down of the best way to build a good meaty 2.8, nothing exotic, just a good streetable power producer.
 
ie: cam, headwork, bigger pistons(.30 or .40 over) you said a four barrel would be just a waste, so keep the 2 barrel and go with a ????? carb ect ect ect.
 
I just dont want to mess around with putting in a V8 in, when i think I can get what I want out of this V6, I just dont have the breakdown of what needs to be done to the V6. So I am reaching out to all the people who have the knowledge, and asking them to throw me a bone please  :o .
 
Thanks, Tink
1977 Crusin Wagon when I was 16

Offline Pintopower

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2010, 12:36:17 PM »
Just so we are clear, I am by no means an expert on the 2.8, I just have studied the thermodynamic properties of the standard IC engine and have come up with 150 HP at 5600 at the rear wheels on my 2.8.
 
First things first, the 2.8 is a European engine. It does not act like a USÖerÖ anything. It is a high revving, short stroke, 60 degree V motor. We are used to seeing long stroke, low revving 90 degree Vís. You will never be able to do an burnout with a 2.8 easily; itís simply not in its power band yet. You will get the power on the road in the high RPM range. My car is thrilled to be at 4000-5000 on the race track. On a drag strip, where off the line power is needed, you time it with a calendar.
 
Here is what you do to make your 2.8 happy.
 
Dual Exhaust. Period. It needs it. Badly. Be careful though, the engine needs to have its own exhaust that unbolts like the stock one in order to allow for the engine, trans and exhaust to be pulled like the stock set up. If not, engine and trans pulling is a nightmare (again, experience talking here). It needs to be a two part system (you will understand once you see how the stock y-pipe to exhaust works on a single exhaust V6). Donít forget about the rear of the car. The gas tank is off set so you need to make sure that the driverís side is done correctly. I do not recommend to cut the exhaust at the  axle as at an idle the fumes go right in the  car (again, experience).
 
Cleaning all the ports is an excellent move. Donít port them, the walls are WAY too.
 
As for a bigger piston, you would be better off with a euro one. I donít know what the cost is but bumping up compression as opposed to increasing displacement would be better. I mild cam would be best as well.
 
Do not mill the heads. That will change the geometry of the head/intake/block. Shave a few off if you have a warp but thatís all.
 
As for the Carb, get a Motorcraft 2150 and have it gone through by someone GOOD (if not yourself). If you cant find one, send it to Pony Carburetors. Those guys are magicians. I am not a Holley fan in the least, nor to I like anything other than Webers or my personal favorite (not joking either), the most advanced and spectacular carb in history, the 2700 VV (never mind that they donít work).
 
All of this effort has gone into my 2.8. You want streetable? Well this car has 105K miles on the clock since the rebuild. It has been on race tracks and roads. It has A/C and PS. Gets 28 mpg on the highway and passes California State emissions testing. It has 150 hp at the rear wheels. You want streetable, hereís what I have to say:
 

 
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2871374725_3239d7b8db.jpg
 
Fun are reliable.
 
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

Offline popbumper

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 08:49:39 AM »
Chris,
 
Nothing like getting tested. Well I started it so here goes. This is from my experience, never mind that I am a thermodynamic engineer and work on ProEngineer with FloEFD thermal software.
 
The 2.3 is a different beast than the 2.8.
 
The 2.3's displacement is pretty big for a 4 cylinder globally speaking. I have a fiat with a 850 CC 4 cyl so you can see what I'm talking about. It also has a greater stroke and higher capacity of air that needs to be removed where the 2.8 has a large bore but a tiny stroke (which give it the ability so wind up like an formula one car, relativly speaking) and has smaller bursts of air. Now the 2.3's exhaust manifold is an excellent unit. The ports are a bit tiny BUT it is essentially a cast header (unlike the 2.0). The 2.8 manifolds are not bad but certainly nothing like the 2.3's swooping shape.
 
Onto the 2.3 head work. Here is what I have done to my Pangra's in term motor (until i finish its 2.3 turbo).
It is a 74 block with a 79 head. I donít know if there are any differences but I am just stating the facts. I popped in zero deck pistons in the block and milled the head by 120 thou. This made the chamber 52 (I think) CC + the felpro gasket which was 12 CC. Then I clayed the valves to make sure there was clearance (i calculated it before but I wanted to make sure before I ruined everything). This bumped up the compression to 10.9 on paper but 10.6 in reality. Originally it was just under 7.0:1.
 
Then I bought a basic stage one cam from Esslinger. More lift and duration(i forget the numbers). It is nothing radical but i just wanted something better. I did not do any porting since I ate so much off the head already. When you mill the head, you have changed the geometry of the timing belt. This means that you need an adjustable cam pulley. Mine is advanced 4 degrees.
 
Once done, I knew that the stock HP at the flywheel was around 79 or so in 1974. When I had the stock autolite tuned (at a smog shop) and the distributor curved, the car had 105 hp at the rear wheels! That means about 130 at the flywheel! This all cost me about $400. By the way, I installed a cat on it (because they are good for the environment, period) and its CO2 output was nearly unreadable and the HC was at 18 ppm. Legal (if this car needed a smog which it does not) is 250 ppm.
 
A header would probably bump up the hp another 3-5 hp but this car has A/C so I do not want further heat loading. Once the motor needs more fuel, then I would say holley 350. I really stay away from 4bbls unless you have serious engine work and a monster cam. Then you are in the 200 hp range and the car is almost unstreetable.
 
So yea, milling the head is ok but different pistons is the right way. I take it easy with my stuff so it was fine for me. You donít need to rebuild the bottom end unless its history us unknown.
 
Best bang? Mill the head, tune the carb perfectly and curve the distributor. I have since ditched the points for an MSD unit (which I hate but gave the car noticeable gain in power), accel 8.8 mm plug wires, and a few other bits.
 
Moral of the story is, make your car run cleaner, more efficiently and tune it perfectly. Just doing that you will see massive increases in power. Headers, carbs, intakes are all things you get to AFTER you do the hard stuff.
 
Here's how you know if you did it right: You will get more power, better mileage and your car wonít stink like raw fuel like 90% of cars at car shows.
 
A lot of info there, hope I answered everything. Back to work I go.
 
 Alberto:

  I never had an opportunity to thank you for your inputs. That was very helpful information and a good roadmap to begin with. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience here!

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

Offline Pintopower

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2010, 11:18:23 AM »
Not a problem
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

Offline rctinker

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 07:37:16 PM »
Qoute by Pintopower:(As for a bigger piston, you would be better off with a euro one. I donít know what the cost is but bumping up compression as opposed to increasing displacement would be better. I mild cam would be best as well.)
 
So are you talking a piston with a bigger dome? Or actually getting a set of euro pistons?
Thanks, Tink
1977 Crusin Wagon when I was 16

Offline Pintopower

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2010, 11:16:33 AM »
I know very little about the aftermarket availability of pistons for the 2.8. My thoughts are to start with how the engine was designed to be, and that means looking across the pond. Find out the differences (why the US 2.8 has so much lower compression than the euro) and then see what needs to be done. If it is possible to get a piston with a bigger dome here in the States, then I would do it. Make sure the compression isn't over 10.5 though, then it becomes un-drivable. Unless you want a race car, take it easy. You will be amazed at the top end that you will get after just a dyno tune. My Bobcat was a different car after I got it tuned.
 
Good luck
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

Offline 75BOBCAT

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Re: 2.8l V6 HEADERS
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 01:27:40 PM »
I'm 17 and clearly someone needs to do their research before they say a header won't increase horsepower.  My stock header has 2 restrictors on it that aren't nessiscary for making power or efficency.  Horsepower is the ability to get air in and out, so since I have an aftermarket air filter assembly and breather cap it would be in my interest to have a header.  Since I cut out the rusted muffler I've noticed a horsepower gain, and since I've purchased and installed the aftermarket parts i've noticed moreee gain.  So in my opinion, with a header and and y pipe in the dual exhaust with no restrictions, it would be making twice the horsepower I've already achived.  Thanks for the info on where I can find a header, and thank you for the good laugh whoever said it wouldn't add power.  :tgif:
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