PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA

Shiny is Good! => It's all about the Turbo... => Topic started by: 65ShelbyClone on July 20, 2014, 12:39:02 PM

Title: A 1972 turbo swap adventure
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 20, 2014, 12:39:02 PM
The car:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IMGP4920_zps107c470c.jpg)

'86 Turbo Coupe donor on the way home:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IMGP5047_zps53d88f5f.jpg)

This is the kind of 28 year-old desert dirt and grime I had to contend with. It was still encrusted after three motor bath + pressure washing sessions. I finally said "Enough!" and pulled the driveline.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/birdlungs_zpsa9b82559.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/bird-guts_zpsd07e25af.jpg)

After many hours of grueling scraping, degreasing, sand blasting, and painting, this is how the engine is shaping up:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/engine2_zpsebe09300.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/engine1_zps42587b1c.jpg)

I left the longblock alone and just tidied everything up. I wanted to port the head, intake, and exhaust manifold. This engine has 214k on it already, so I figure it's probably going to come out for a rebuild in the next 50k anyway. I also elected to not invest a bunch of work in the head if it's cracked all to heck...and 80-90% of 2.3T heads are.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/moneyshot1_zps5f88f5b3.jpg)

I probably shouldn't have pulled the turbo and manifold off without replacing all the nuts and bolts. Time will tell if they relax and cause leaks.

I am going to be using a MegaSquirt-II v3.0 standalone EFI controller, which needs to have an intake air temp (IAT) sensor. My '86 engine had an IAT in the air meter, which I am not using. This meant poking a hole in the lower intake and mounting a sensor like an '87+ engine. Left hole is for the knock sensor, right one that's fuzzy is for the IAT.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/KS_amp_IAT_holes_zpsb7ba8f65.jpg)

'85.5-86 "square" EFI intakes like mine have the tall upper part. In '87 they were shortened to fit the TurboCoupe. At this point I am not willing to blow a big ugly hole in my stock hood or cut up the intake, so I have to make a low-profile upper intake plenum that faces forward. This is the start:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/intake_flange_zpsfd328385.jpg)

I have made some progress since taking these photos, but nothing very noteworthy. I'l probably relocate the alternator to where the 2.3t's A/C compressor was in front of the turbo so I have lots of room to deal with throttle body positioning. That is also where the 2.0's alternator is, so maybe a little wiring to do too.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on July 20, 2014, 04:15:13 PM
NICE.... I really like that oil pan, did you mod a stock one or buy it ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on July 20, 2014, 05:49:12 PM
Been there, done that. The 87-88 electrical is a real joy (see pics). Your work is exceptionally nice.  I also noticed your motor mounts and large (wide) sump oil pan.  All the best in your venture.






Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dga57 on July 20, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Looks like it's coming along nicely!  Keep up the good work!
 
Dwayne :)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 20, 2014, 11:32:14 PM
That is also where the 2.0's alternator is, so maybe a little less wiring to do too.

Oops, fixed.

I did manage to relocate the alternator today and all it took was modifying a 460 alternator bracket and making some spacers. Now I can strip off all those huge brackets on the other side.

Now I have to fit the dipstick, plug the old hole, put some of the EFI harness back, and it will be ready to come off the stand, which means bolting on the T5 and pulling the 2.0/four-speed out.

NICE.... I really like that oil pan, did you mod a stock one or buy it ?

Thanks.  :) I bought it because there weren't any other Pinto pans and pickups for sale at the time. Supposedly it came from a 2.3 engine builder/race shop. It's actually built from what was originally a rear-sump pan.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/pan1_zpsf92c5723.jpg)

It was also cracked next to the welds in the rear end seal corners and I didn't notice until I had wet sealer and new gaskets laying on the block.  >:( It's fixed now; I just hope it stays fixed. If nothing else, it's a good shelf for storing loose bolts.

No photos, but I had to swap two of the main bolts to get a studded one in the right place for that pickup. The bearings looked really good on #4, so hopefully the rest are. I was going to pull all the rod caps and have a look, but decided I didn't want to know. I made the 'Bird run before I pulled the engine and it sounded/acted normal for burning seven year-old gas, so that's enough for now.

Been there, done that. The 87-88 electrical is a real joy (see pics). Your work is exceptionally nice.  I also noticed your motor mounts and large (wide) sump oil pan.  All the best in your venture.

Look at all that spare wire though! And you got the dash out of there too. I started breaking things just to get the engine harness out...

For engine mounts I'm planning to use the stock 2.3T engine brackets, Speedway Motors universal isolators, and make my own frame brackets.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Srt on July 21, 2014, 03:53:04 AM
!!!! good project.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on July 21, 2014, 07:44:49 AM
It's looking good, good luck on the project..
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on July 21, 2014, 12:06:19 PM
Race engineering sells a pan I'm looking at, very similar to that.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 21, 2014, 12:20:11 PM
I went back and looked and I guess it came from Jonson Machine. Whether they built it or just sold it, I don't know. Could be a C-Line.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 22, 2014, 03:21:26 AM
More.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/lump4_zpscf512abb.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/lump5_zpsbe3af63d.jpg)

It's really tempting to cheap out and use the crush-bent stock 2.25" downpipe, but I'm probably going to use that mandrel u-bend in the back to make a 2.5" one.

It's not much to look at, but this is a 6061 dipstick plug. Two o-rings to seal and an interference fit at the top.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/plug1_zps99961956.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on July 22, 2014, 04:39:19 PM
open that exhaust up, 3" mandrill bent down pipe and exhaust...!  you really will be glad you did.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 22, 2014, 06:43:54 PM
Says you with an ARCA head, Holset turbo, and 900hp fuel system.  ;)

I wanted to go 3.00" out the back (do it right the first time is my mantra) and probably will in the future, but I have the parts now and am looking more at being able to drive the car soon. It's probably going to be 2.5" from the turbo down to a glasspack with a turndown facing down and to the side (ugly and loud, but at least I'll hear the turbine!  ;D). Something could change, though. This morning I thought I'd have to fabricate a whole upper intake. An hour ago I bought the throttle body and elbow setup from a 4.6 Mustang to use instead. :o It's kind of like a smaller, lower profile version of the Edelbrock elbow you were working with.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on July 23, 2014, 04:34:24 AM
that's an SVO Head.  ;D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 23, 2014, 01:04:23 PM
Tomayto, tomahto.  ;)

Anyway, this is the thing I bought:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/elbow_zps33d7112b.jpg)

in order to make a setup reminiscent of this one:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/greencar22109-004_zps7bff8816.jpg)

I wish I could find more information on that car.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: turbopinto72 on July 23, 2014, 01:37:38 PM
What kind of info do you need on " that car " ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on July 24, 2014, 01:41:42 PM
I plan on redesigning my under hood plumbing in the future. I will use a different header, one that tilts the turbo more towards the fender and a bit lower. on the intake side, instead of the upper mounted on top, it will be mounted on the side towards the fender. I have kind of mocked it up like that and it will all fit under a stock hood.  ;D.....   but back to your setup. I think one of the guys on TF used that piece on his euro capri and it worked well. so I see no problems on your setup.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 24, 2014, 02:27:35 PM
That sounds like DRHaulsee. He has a fleet of nice Euro Capris, including one with a Volvo head. Thanks for the lead, it gives me more to go by as I further wear out TF's search engine.  ;D

In other news, I didn't like my first alternator bracket. It seemed kind of flexy, so I rebuilt it with more substantial material. Then I mocked-up the belt and it hit the lower bolts. Then I found out the spacers I made just happened to allow the adjuster to be run behind the lower bracket, so now only one bolt is in the way. I think I can shave the head down and make it work or countersink the bracket and use a different bolt.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/alt_front_zps04c3835b.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/alt_back_zpscdcf77bc.jpg)


What kind of info do you need on " that car " ?

Specifically: perhaps what was done to adapt the 4.6L elbow to the lower intake and how well it worked. It looks like new holes were put in the flange it was bolted to a square EFI lower.

Generally: maybe a rundown of the mods and how the car performed. I thought it was your Pinto and tried searching, but the most Icould easily find was the picture I posted and a smaller one like it on bob2000.com
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 02, 2014, 09:58:01 PM
In other news, part of a Mustang II Mach 1 headed for certain death will instead better the life my Pinto.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/chunky_munkey1_zps519815d5.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on August 03, 2014, 01:46:03 PM
nice 8", what ratio is it ?  trac lock ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 03, 2014, 07:58:25 PM
It's just a common 3.00 open diff. OEM 8in Traction-Lok carriers are like hen's teeth. In fact, I'm not sure Ford ever used them in production.

It needs a pinion seal too. Fortunately I have another 8in rear that doesn't, so I may swap the third members when I'm replacing the axle bearings and seals.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on August 03, 2014, 11:47:31 PM
they did go into production, I had one, same 3.00, out of a 67 falcon. found it in a jy. but anyway, that's neither here nor there. you going to put a spool or something in it ? change the ratio ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 04, 2014, 02:39:08 AM
I would like to go with 3.40 or 3.55 gears and a T-Lok. For now it's going to get used as it is. The legs are going to be pretty long with overdrive.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on August 05, 2014, 12:16:37 AM
When I first got my Turbo Pinto going I had the 3.00 with 215-60-14" tires. 65 MPH was about 2000 RPM.  The worst part was that for any given "legal" speed the gearing just seemed to be wrong. Up shifting bogged and down shifting was RPMs with little torque multiplication .

 Eventually I got a 3.40 rear and am currently running 175-70-13".  For general driving it is MUCH better.  65 MPH is now about 2600 RPM.  I'm going to a slightly taller tire soon. I've got a pair of 205-60-13". I'm also looking at going back to 14" tires too.  I've got about four different wheel tires combinations to try between my Sunbeam Tiger and my Pinto.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 05, 2014, 11:08:07 PM
My first gear is the really steep 4.03 one, so the 3.00s won't be a problem taking off, but overdrive is going to be mostly useless.

I crunched the numbers manually and my car will do a scoche over 2600rpm at 65mph in 4th and about 2100 in 5th with 3.00s. 3.40 gears would bring that up to ~2450 in 5th and 3.55s would do about 2600. Decisions, decisions.

Here is my 130A Jewel of the Pile:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/alternate_choice1_zpsf5cdb3dd.jpg)

I took it apart to clean and repack the bearings, dress the commutator, and managed to break the brushes, so there's another $9 toward the project. At least it will be practically rebuilt and won't even break a sweat with the electric fan, lights, and EFI going.

And here is what I spent my evening doing:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/lump-be-gone1_zps5601f2de.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Reeves1 on August 06, 2014, 10:43:40 AM
Having the engine out will make it lighter for shipping me that nice car  ;D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on August 06, 2014, 06:31:29 PM
I don't think I've ever seen your car before. Is that the green car that was on Craig's List in Simi Valley a number of months ago?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 06, 2014, 09:14:09 PM
Question for anyone else with a 2.3T swap, espeically in a '71-73 car: how did you handle running the EFI harness into the cabin?

Having the engine out will make it lighter for shipping me that nice car  ;D

You don't want it; it's rotten. See how green it is?

I don't think I've ever seen your car before. Is that the green car that was on Craig's List in Simi Valley a number of months ago?

Sounds like the same one.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on August 07, 2014, 12:48:33 AM
I used the dreaded '88 harness I had from the donor car. I put the ECU in the kick panel area just like the T-Bird.  I used the T-Bird Factory triangular shaped grommet and ran it in near the upper corner of the heater box.  Since your donor car is an '86 that may be all you need. BTW, after the Merkur harness I hear the '86 is desirable.
  I also had a round grommet and wires that I ran in about 3" from the factory Pinto passage.  Lastly, I used the T-Bird steering column and that added to the wire count.  I'll see if I can snap a few pictures tomorrow.

And, yes, I almost went and looked at the Simi Valley car.  It was only about 8 miles away.  But, I've got too many project competing for my time and money.  Glad to see it is becoming a very nice car.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on August 07, 2014, 05:08:46 AM
what year/model car did you get that 130 amp jewel out of ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 07, 2014, 10:35:55 AM
I got it out of a '96-98 Mustang V6. They can be found in many other years and models from around '94+. The trick is finding one with the right case. My 3G has all the 1G mounting points, but the adjuster ear isn't threaded. It requires either a bolt and nut to hold it or possibly installing a 3/8" thread insert.

1.) I used the dreaded '88 harness I had from the donor car. I put the ECU in the kick panel area just like the T-Bird.  I used the T-Bird Factory triangular shaped grommet and ran it in near the upper corner of the heater box.  Since your donor car is an '86 that may be all you need. BTW, after the Merkur harness I hear the '86 is desirable.
  I also had a round grommet and wires that I ran in about 3" from the factory Pinto passage.  Lastly, I used the T-Bird steering column and that added to the wire count.  I'll see if I can snap a few pictures tomorrow.

2.) And, yes, I almost went and looked at the Simi Valley car.  It was only about 8 miles away.  But, I've got too many project competing for my time and money.  Glad to see it is becoming a very nice car.

1.) Thanks for the run down. I will admit that I have not yet surveyed the interior for places to put the EFI harness. I am reluctant to make another big hole in the firewall. I wanted to put my ECU behind the console area and the big factory grommet looks to be close, so a round one like stock, but with two holes might make it easier to do.

I'm going to be using a MegaSquirt standalone ECU so the whole package will be about 40% smaller than the stock ECU/plug/harness.

2.) Thanks.  ;) It's going to get nicer. One of my goals after the swap is to respray it when the weather isn't too hot and before it gets too cool. Here in the high desert that typically gives me a 7-14 day window.  ::)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on August 07, 2014, 05:50:45 PM
OK, here are the two firewall pictures where I went through the firewall.  As I said I used the '88 harness and took the, "what do I have to remove approach." In retrospect I should have probably taken the, "what do I need to keep approach."  Both the rubber grommets are factory. Even after I sifted though the ride control, A/C etc., etc., I had about 20 wire I was unsure of. I have since deleted most - after I got it running right.

Regardless it doesn't stay too pretty using all the factory stuff.  I guess it was just my fear of removing something I would need to be put back - but not being sure what "it" was.


Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 07, 2014, 06:22:49 PM
Thanks for the photos.  8) Yours looks almost like a factory install. I think I have it a little bit easier since my '86 harness only has one grommet. Most of the unused wires can also be reused or allocated  for extra fun EFI features like boost control, fan control, water injection, 2nd O2 sensor, flex fuel sensor, etc.

I just spent a bunch more money on parts. Driveshaft, u-joints, gaskets, bearings, oil, and I forget what else for now.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 72pair on August 07, 2014, 07:59:24 PM
Looks like you're well on your way. Have you found mounts? I did scare up a set of block and frame mounts, if you're still interested in a swap. It'll be a cross country ship, but they should fit in a flat rate box.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 07, 2014, 11:12:48 PM
I never did get any 2.3 mounts. I'll send you a PM shortly.

On the build front, I got new brushes in the 3G alternator and put a 3/8-16 Heli Coil in the adjuster ear. It's all back together and now I have to massage the pulley so it doesn't rub on the case and so there is enough shaft thread for the nut, then make sure alignment is still good.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 13, 2014, 01:22:15 AM
Small update: some uninteresting gaskets, seals, and bearings came yesterday for the rear end. The drive shaft came in this afternoon.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/gettin_shafted1_zpse9960881.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/mine_is_bigger1_zps602c053b.jpg)

It's wider, so hopefully that makes up for being shorter. :ob [/innuendo]

Now I'm waiting for a pair of combination u-joints in the mail.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on August 13, 2014, 10:50:32 AM
What is your replacement shaft from?  I went from a C-4 with a 6-3/4" to a T-5 with a 8" and was able to use the same driveshaft.  Since your car was originally a 4 speed perhaps that necessitates the change?  Is it the yoke on the differential that require the combination U-Joints?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 13, 2014, 03:03:31 PM
A lot of the info I have found is conflicting. I have seen reports that just an 8" swap requires a shorter drive shaft and I know a T5 is 1.375in longer than a 4-speed. I had to go on what people said about a 45.5in being right for a 2.3/T5/8in in a Pinto.

It also took a lot of digging to find out that '79-93 V8 and '94-04 V6 Mustangs all use 45.5in long drive shafts with joint size depending on year and engine.

Mine was obscurely labeled as being from (and only cross-referenced to) a 2000-2001 Mustang V6 five speed, so I took a gamble and bought it. Fortunately it turned out to be 45.5in as well. $32 shipped plus $20 in u-joints ≈ $50 saved over having the original shortened.

It uses 1330 universals and both yokes are 1310, hence the combination joints.

Curious tidbit: the 2001 driveshaft ends still have a 1963 Ford engineering number.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on August 13, 2014, 04:11:17 PM
Got ya. Yes, I recall my C-4, 6-3/4" driveshaft being 45.5" so it worked without changes.  I also recall someone stating an Aerostar aluminum driveshaft being 45.5".

  I've got a '64 Studebaker Daytona with a 350 Chevy small block and a 700R4. When I did the transmission swap I had to crawl under a few cars, but a '78 Buick Skylark 4 Dr. did the job and its 350 (trans) input shaft fit my 700R4.  The "detective work" can be fun at times. Sure saves cash.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 13, 2014, 05:33:38 PM
Only the AWD '96-97(?) Aerostar rear drive shafts were aluminum and 45.5". There were lots of Aerostars at the JY when I went, but all of them were 2WD or I would have pulled one. More of that detective work at work...

The "detective work" can be fun at times. Sure saves cash.

And something just might get learned in the process.  :o 8)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 72pair on August 13, 2014, 09:36:14 PM
Will be interested in how this all shakes out. IIRC, I put the 2.3 and 4 speed in my 72 and used the original driveshaft. I later installed the MII 8 inch and needed to shorten the shaft one inch. Could probably have jammed it in there but wanted some play. Still later added the t-5 and needed more clearance so went looking for a shorter shaft. The 45.5 number seems familiar so hopefully that  works for you. Wish that car wasnt buried in the back of a buddy's garage so I could measure it. I agree reading posts here you get a lot of conflicting info at times. 
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 13, 2014, 11:27:39 PM
Thanks to 72pair, I'll know if the DS is workable much sooner with the help of these:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/royal_mounties_zps5c2236f1.jpg)

If no one has ever seen 2.0 mounts removed with anything other than a chisel and BFH, here are some intact:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/20_mounts_zpsc3d11ca4.jpg)

In other news, I put the 3G on:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/3G_no_AC_zpsbe89693b.jpg)

3G swaps are easy if the engine already has a serpentine belt, but things are a little more complicated with v-belts. A standard dual belt pulley like mine will rub on the 3G case. A simple fix is to put the original 1G 0.060" washer behind the pulley, but that doesn't fix the minimal thread engagement for the nut.

In order to fix all of that without changing belt alignment, I put the pulley in a lathe and faced about 0.060" off the back(but not off of the shoulder that butts against the bearing) and made the front counterbore about 0.080" deeper.

I also replaced the pinion seal in the MII 8" rear. Hopefully I got preload back in the right ballpark...
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 20, 2014, 12:16:35 PM
TL;DR alert. I have been doing a job that keeps me away from the car for days at a time, so not much is getting done as of late. Here's a week of catchup:

I replaced an axle seal and got into the middle of replacing a damaged wheel stud when I found out that I bought the wrong stud. >:( Got the right one now, but haven't installed it yet. As an aside, I suggest avoiding Centric/C-Tek brand seals. More Chinese junk.

Speaking of Chinese junk, I also got my combo u-joints. They are Precision brand, same as what O'Reilly's carries, but I got them for half price. Turns out one of them had nicks on two journals that made it spin rough. Not worth sending it back, so I polished them out. Also....the joints have "USA" cast into the spider, but say "made in China" on the box. >:(

I also replaced the pinion seal in the MII 8" rear (edit 8/20/2014: using a good Timken seal). Hopefully I got preload back in the right ballpark...

My driving desire to do everything the right way with this car forced me to buy a little 0-60in/lb beam torque wrench specifically to check the pinion preload. At least I can use it on my bicycles too. It says the preload is still way below spec for used bearings, so I don't have to replace the crush sleeve after all, just keep tightening and checking until it's right. :D

Conclusion: reassembling the pinion nose/yoke/nut in original alignment without checking preload is lazy and unreliable.

My hokey seven-color Harbor Freight boost gauge came in yesterday. I only got it because the reviews are good and I thought having red/green/white backlight options would be handy. Problem is that the needle is red and the red LED setting makes it disappear. OTOH, the blue and aqua options make it fluoresce like a blacklight would. It's also extremely bright, so I'll have to figure something out to dim it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/TheBoostIsLoose_zps5483176a.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/GetLit1_zpse91e0ea5.jpg)

As an FYI, this gauge requires a constant +12v power supply if you want it to remember an LED color setting other than the default green. It latches the setting when the selector button is pushed and killing power resets it. I'll check the standby current draw when I can and report back.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 20, 2014, 07:21:28 PM
I'll have something worthwhile to report next time, I promise.

I checked current draw at standby and for each color with a Harbor Freight DVOM (got it free with the gauge) and the tired 9v battery in that last photo. Actual current draw at system voltage in a car will be higher.


Standby...3.5m A @ 8v
Green....17.0m A
Blue.....12.0m A
Red......23.5m A
Aqua.....23.8m A
Yellow...35.4m A
Purple...30.1m A
White....41.4m A


Standby is the one to worry about because that's what pulls on the battery when the car is parked.

Current goes upward with some colors because the LED has three silicon chips inside; red green, and blue. Various combinations are needed to make the other colors. White runs all three, so it creates the highest current draw.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on August 22, 2014, 05:45:48 AM
Mmmm, that boost gauge wouldn't work for me, only goes to 30 lbs. lol... :o
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 22, 2014, 10:22:23 AM
It actually only goes to 20psi, which is too low even for my stock turbo goals, but it was cheap.

Bourdon tube pressure gauges (at least industrial ones) are generally calibrated to be most accurate right in the middle of their range and have the most error at either end, so if you are going to be running ~30psi, you might consider a 60psi diesel pressure-only gauge if absolute accuracy is a consideration. Usually it's not critical in automotive applications though.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 03, 2014, 12:57:15 AM
After wasting an hour looking the rubber engine mounts I bought months ago followed by a combined two hours looking for two 7/16-14 nuts to go on them, I got all the bracketry mocked onto the engine.

Now it's getting to the part I don't really like: replacing rusty sheet metal.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/creeping-crud1_zps303cd28a.jpg)

I was going to drop the engine in first to see how much space I needed to make for the turbo, but the battery area started disintegrating under a wire wheel, so it got moved ahead. The Thunderbird's fuel tank is an unlikely source for patch panels with compound bends.

What have you all with the early cars done with this brake line?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/line-in-the-sand_zps1804bba1.jpg)

Haven't decided if I'm going to try bending it, replacing it, or rerouting it under the frame.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 03, 2014, 11:22:08 AM
On my '73 the hard brake line runs under the uni-frame rail.

  I cut the whole panel back about 3/4" short of the firewall. Going forward I went to that lower triangular area. Where as the original metal bumps upward to seemingly clears the upper A-arm, I went concave to clear the boost control actuator (which even after that has very little clearance). I think it is a much better way than piecing specific areas of rust. Top to bottom I went from the frame rail to the top of the inner compartment sheet metal.

  Logically I think it just kind of dictates what can be done with ordinary tools unless you have all the proper sheet metal tools. Cardboard templates help a lot.  Oh, and the welded seam in the center..., it is Bondo-ed. My metal skills aren't that good.



Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 03, 2014, 09:15:29 PM
I hate showing off my own welds, but I accomplished the major goal of getting the inner fender welding and fabrication done. Flux core on dirty iron-based paper does not make for pretty, so maybe the doo-doo weld beads will get tidied a bit. Or not.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/alls_weld_that-ends-weld_zps987be1ed.jpg)

Here's a cast elbow I'm been dragging around forever and an old Pace Setter air filter that has been around even longer. Turns out one end of the elbow is 2.75" like the compressor inlet and the other end is 5" like that air filter. Would be great if both end up fitting somewhere.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/elbow-grease_zps3b9ab712.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on September 03, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
Looks good, better than if I would have done it, lol.. ;D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 04, 2014, 01:31:13 AM
You're too kind toward my booger welds. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/smilies/a-farmboy_zpsdb4c7f84.gif)

On a side note, that part of the inner fender is surprisingly rigid now. The 16ga sheet I did the lower half with is like armor plate compared to the original rusty cheese.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on September 04, 2014, 07:42:42 AM
Nothing wrong with that, should last a lifetime now..
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 04, 2014, 10:03:52 AM
Here is a bottom side picture of how the '73 brake line was run. Interesting they would move it given the same engines were offered in '72 as '73.

The boost control actuator sure tucks closer to the engine on pre-87-88 engines.  Your sheet metal in that area must be 3" higher than mine.  Not sure if you are aware, but the rear outer bolt on the cast 90 degree elbow (where it connects to the exhaust pipe) has both interference issues and difficulty in tightening.  I think some just punch a hole big enough for a socket to fit through.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 06, 2014, 09:00:29 PM
Mine is exactly opposite; the soft line comes up from the bottom and the hard line down from above through the inner fender. I think I got it all tweaked and moved out of the way of the mount now. I cleaned and prepped the frame rails for welding too.

The engine is hanging in the air, the rear main seal has been replaced, and the new flywheel and clutch installed. Dipstick is bolted down, sending units have been transferred from the 2.0 to the 2.3, and aftermarket ones installed for the funky '80s LED volts/water/oil gauge I got. Next task is to bolt the transmission on and start locating the mounts.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/feeling_the_pressure_zpsa9f9d00e.jpg)

Yes, I know there's a Fram filter on there. It's going to be on there just long enough to catch all the assembly debis/rag lint/dog hair/etc and/or get caved-in during engine installation. ;)

Anyone notice something wrong with this picture?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/I_aint_into_studs_brah_zpsdf2eb865.jpg)

I didn't until it was bolted onto the engine and the pressure plate was ready to go on. No dowels!

The old junk flywheel was still around, so I knocked the ring gear loose, tossed it up on the mill, cut from the back until I hit the pockets, and then knocked the dowels out.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 07, 2014, 08:17:41 PM
It's hard-won progress, but progress nonetheless.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/hanging-by-the-noose_zps0123cc07.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/engine-mockup1_zps7dd51561.jpg)

The mounts aren't welded yet, but at least that heavy beast is hanging in the bay now.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 09, 2014, 10:33:38 PM
And harder-won:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/not-the-usual-drill_zps9655aeb0.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/shoe-horn-amp-vaseline_zps94e3ec5b.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/theBay1_zps53e7d1e8.jpg)

Yeah, about that hood clearance...I thought I would be able to make some blocks to raise the back of the hood, but that's probably not going to work with a combination of the smallest Pinto engine bay and tallest 2.3T intake.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/head-above-the-rest_zpse423582d.jpg)

I spent a really long time lining up the mounts and finally jiggled the whole driveline into a spot where there is about a finger's width between the pand and rack, bellhousing bolts and firewall, and at least the starter isn't touching the rack,

Did you guys know that the 2.3 doesn't sit straight in a Pinto engine bay? I didn't, at least not before spending a few hours trying to get one to sit straight. :o
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on September 10, 2014, 08:58:56 AM
Get a mid 90's ranger 2.3L starter and you'll have lots of clearance plus it'll turn over like the plugs are out. Cheap mini starter.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 10, 2014, 10:08:43 AM
Thanks for the interchange source. :) I was thinking "this thing needs a mini starter" the whole time. You can see how grungy the original one is ( the one part I didn't clean) and it is original 1986, so a replacement is probably in the foreseeable future anyway.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 15, 2014, 02:06:04 AM
Finally got to button a few things up.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/stickin-it-to-the-man1_zps6fe38f45.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/rear-that-ugly_zps2068f056.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/willing-amp-cable_zps308387f1.jpg)

Anyone familiar with the Turbo Coupe (and other models') enormous driveshaft yoke damper like this

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/2hggv46_zps94d7ba76.jpg)

might be interested to know that all that rubber and iron are just pressed on there. Under it all is a fairly standard yoke.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/yokes-on-you1_zps40f48c4c.jpg)

In my case, a 1310 one. I would have used the 1330 yoke that came with the drive shaft, but the rust pitting wouldn't clean up enough.

Now I have to track down some bulk high pressure fuel hose which is surprisingly hard to find in this godforsaken place.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 16, 2014, 12:56:58 AM
I went back and looked and I guess it came from Jonson Machine. Whether they built it or just sold it, I don't know. Could be a C-Line.

I remembered someone asking and thought I would follow up with the information that it is a C-Line oil pan. I didn't notice the name stamped in it by the drain until crawling around the car with the sump in my face. ::)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 17, 2014, 10:40:48 PM
Just a small, ear-splitting update:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/my-ears-are-ringing1_zps9d23dd9b.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/I-cant-hear-you1_zpsc615d40c.jpg)

It's just there long enough to keep exhaust from blowtorching that brake line and new metal where the battery was when I fire the engine and work out the preliminary kinks.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 18, 2014, 12:40:14 PM
Wow, thanks for all the progress updates. In a lot of ways it is like reliving my project.  There is some comfort in knowing I wasn't the only one who had the issues you encountered.  A few comments:

Seven times I had the engine in/out before I committed to welding the motor mounts. I also hammered on my pan a bit, but then I have the odd (bulbous ended) '73 rack.

 On the transmission mount even reversed you still have to get those bolt holes (slot) WAY far back - don't you!

On the starter bearing protrusion I slightly notched the rubber and then indented the rack clamp (do at your own risk). But, yea it is tight. I even had to grind down the head of the rear clamp bolt because the starter was hitting it.  This swap probably has about five areas you could measure the clearance with a feeler gauge. Dick, thanks for the starter info.

I don't have anything to add regarding the "flywheel" on the drive shaft. Thankfully my 2.0/C-4/6-3/4" drive shaft fit perfectly with my 2.3/T-5/8". However, if you find the cable to crossmember clearance to be a problem you might add an extension like this (image 1). You have to bend the bellcrank arm outward slightly for better alignment.  I also put a small tab on the bracket as an anti rotate if it got loose.

Lastly, how does the shifter feel position wise? (are you punching the dash in 1-3-5)? I'm 6 ft. and prefer my seat back.  It was quite a process to cut (shorten) and extend (rearward) the shifter and still get the motion to feel correct.

All the best and thanks again for the updates.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 18, 2014, 02:07:58 PM
Wow, thanks for all the progress updates. In a lot of ways it is like reliving my project.  There is some comfort in knowing I wasn't the only one who had the issues you encountered.
 

I was a little concerned about spamming this thread too much. :) The weather has been unseasonably hot and humid the last 10 days, giving me only about an hour before dark in the evenings to do stuff (like swatting at eye gnats), so progress has been in small steps.

Quote
A few comments:

Seven times I had the engine in/out before I committed to welding the motor mounts. I also hammered on my pan a bit, but then I have the odd (bulbous ended) '73 rack.

On the transmission mount even reversed you still have to get those bolt holes (slot) WAY far back - don't you!

Mine ended up not being that far back, possibly because the engine is marginally higher and forward of where a lot of people put it. I think I could have gotten away with just flipping the crossmember.

Quote
On the starter bearing protrusion I slightly notched the rubber and then indented the rack clamp (do at your own risk). But, yea it is tight. I even had to grind down the head of the rear clamp bolt because the starter was hitting it.  This swap probably has about five areas you could measure the clearance with a feeler gauge.

The main reason I opted for more clearance in the tight areas was to allow for any sagging the engine mounts may do as they age.

Quote
I don't have anything to add regarding the "flywheel" on the drive shaft. Thankfully my 2.0/C-4/6-3/4" drive shaft fit perfectly with my 2.3/T-5/8". However, if you find the cable to crossmember clearance to be a problem you might add an extension like this (image 1). You have to bend the bellcrank arm outward slightly for better alignment.  I also put a small tab on the bracket as an anti rotate if it got loose.

If the mounts relax enough to make the cable hit the crossmember, I'm just going to notch it. Fortunately the engine pulls upward on that side.

Quote
Lastly, how does the shifter feel position wise? (are you punching the dash in 1-3-5)? I'm 6 ft. and prefer my seat back.  It was quite a process to cut (shorten) and extend (rearward) the shifter and still get the motion to feel correct.

All the best and thanks again for the updates.

I'm 6' 4" and probably have a longer reach, but I'm still going to relocate the shifter. My arm is out straight in neutral and it's only tolerable, not comfortable. There is about 4" between the stereo face and shift knob in 1/3/5, so not bad there. The plan is to make a bracket like yours, but with a stock-looking stick and knob for a touch of stealth.  ;D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 25, 2014, 01:58:23 AM
Has it been a week already?

Got an upper radiator hose that (generally) fits:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/where_my_hose_at_zps0ed613ab.jpg)

If anyone is wondering, it's for a '74 2.3 without A/C and without extra cooling. The same hose cross-refs to the lower one for an early '90s Toyota pickup V6 2WD.

And finished the shifter bracket made from scrap:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/sticky_situation_zpsdf0e693c.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/millbo_baggins_zps409013ec.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/shifting_direction_zps7c3284cd.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/angle_to_the_dangle_zps41394170.jpg)

That 3/8" aluminum plate was tough too. May have been 7075.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 25, 2014, 10:16:18 AM
Did you cut or bend the shifter at all? I did both to my T/C shifter and it is still longer than yours. Is yours a Mustang shifter?  How does the motion feel? It has been a while, but my recollection was that when I angled my shifter back as you did (I actually made a slot for adjustment) my arm and the transmission were not "at one with each other."  It confounded me as it is all the same flat plate transferring the action, but when I went to a vertical bolt orientation it worked much better.  BTW, my son is a machinist and make R/C car parts on the side. He makes parts out of 7075 and yes, it is "tough" - and cost more too.

Your lower mounted alternator works well. My upper hose must cross over the top of the alternator and I have a plastic anti chaffing shield on it. The price I pay for using the factory '88 harness.  Any date you anticipate that it will be ready to go?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 25, 2014, 12:27:26 PM
Did you cut or bend the shifter at all? I did both to my T/C shifter and it is still longer than yours. Is yours a Mustang shifter?

The shifter stick wasn't modified and I think it is original. This one is very similar to what was used '87-93 Mustangs. although it's from an '86, it looks very much like this one from the '87 sale literature: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/23L-turbo-engine_zps8605a01b.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/23L-turbo-engine_zps8605a01b.jpg). What's curious about that is the mechanical clutch linkage that appears to be direct-pull. For those unfamiliar, 1987-88 Turbo Coupes went into production with a hydraulic clutch.

Quote
How does the motion feel?

Notchy and loud with a mushy isolator like a typical T5.  ;) I'll go to a solid stick mount when I get a short shifter that has adjustable stops.

Quote
It has been a while, but my recollection was that when I angled my shifter back as you did (I actually made a slot for adjustment) my arm and the transmission were not "at one with each other."  It confounded me as it is all the same flat plate transferring the action, but when I went to a vertical bolt orientation it worked much better.

My shifter arm has the obvious z-bend and it's twisted toward the driver side by about 20° so it doesn't align with...really anything. Putting the stick and shifter on the same side of the plate made it slightly more centered over the tunnel.

Overall the bracket moved the shifter centerline back about 1 7/8", to the right by ~5/8", and angling the stick back gained another 2-3".

Quote
Your lower mounted alternator works well. My upper hose must cross over the top of the alternator and I have a plastic anti chaffing shield on it. The price I pay for using the factory '88 harness. 

Since I'm still using the standard 17" radiator, I found that the high-mounted alternator pulley and belt cross right in front of the radiator inlet. Back to the passenger-side until I can track down a low-mount driver's-side bracket pair. I plan to install A/C eventually and put the compressor on the passenger side, so that alternator will have to move.

Quote
Any date you anticipate that it will be ready to go?

About two months ago. :o

Mid-October is what I'm hoping for. The big hurdles now are plumbing the fuel system wiring everything for EFI. I have been avoiding dropping the tank to drill the vent restrictor for fuel return and replace the filler neck grommet.

On that note, how did you run your fuel pump wiring? I have the whole FP harness from the 'Bird and I'm wondering if I should run it through the cabin and out a hole in the hatch floor(like the 'Bird) or route it under the car somehow.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 25, 2014, 05:34:56 PM
I ran the Pink/black fuel pump wire down the floor of the interior - passenger side of the car. At the rear wheel well I ran it behind the plastic.  My car is a wagon and at the very back is a 1/2" hole wires pass through (and, there is similar on the other side).  There is a carpet finisher plate (steel) at the rear just before the hatch. I ran the wire out the hole, across the back under the finisher plate to the rear drivers side. It is here it connects to the fuel shut-off switch. On a sedan I assume the wire would just be run across the back of the trunk.

 The wire then goes into the similar hole on the drivers side and drops down into the rear quarter panel body cavity. There is a rubber grommet with wires coming out of the cavity (under the car) for the fuel sender. I poked a hole in the grommet and drew the wire through (it fits snugly). From there I wire tied it down with the sender wire to the pump which I mounted forward of the axle and externally just behind the rear seat. The pump is a??? late 80's/early 90's F-Series external pump.

Thus, I never had to drill a hole and had an air tight connection where the wire exited the internals of the car.  For my fuel return I drilled a hole in the sender, put a piece of steel tubing in and soldered it. Probably not the best idea because the electrical connection melted and leaked (JB Weld to the rescue) and if I ever need to replace the sender I'm doing it all over again (but at the time it seemed like a good idea and retained the tank vent).

The fuel lines were the TC plastic lines and I used one of those barbed  repair pieces to connect as needed.  I know I preach it all the time, but this is where having the donor car makes all the difference.  I mean just right here you have the harness, the safety switch, the fuel filter clamp and the fuel lines.


Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 25, 2014, 10:32:10 PM
Thanks, that all helps a lot. :)

I got done dropping the tank a few minutes ago and noticed an access plate in the spare tire well. That might be a possible wiring route or wherever the fuel sender wires come from. I'll know more in the daylight.

The tank is growing some barnacles inside, BTW. Someone also replaced the sender float with a sealed(?) clear plastic lawnmower fuel filter.  ???
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 28, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
Old float:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/filter_float_zps3fc2c6b1.jpg)

New old float found in the parts stash and custom pickup sock. Base is Teflon, screen and clamps are stainless. Not nearly as fine a mesh as the original, but there is going to be a filter between the tank and pump anyway.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/sender_bender_zps94164c80.jpg)

Barnacles:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/barnacles1_zps742154b4.jpg)

After some (tons of) tedious work with a small wire cup brush and a pick:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/send_me_more_barnacles_zps6cf687c5.jpg)

My attempt to fix the problem: 11gal of water, a cup of baking soda, a piece of rebar, and a battery charger:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/fizzy-drink-mix_zps82a0cb5f.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/fizzies-are-ready_zps9da64d45.jpg)

Hopefully rust isn't what's holding the tank together.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on September 29, 2014, 12:29:16 PM
What a great idea!!!! BTW you should use the soda made for laundry in the yellow box. Works much better.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 29, 2014, 02:48:24 PM
It was a judgement call on that one. Make a $15 trip to town to get washing soda or use 25¢ worth of what I had on hand and get it rolling a few hours sooner. All I could really find about washing soda is that it is more caustic and works faster. I've used baking soda before with satisfactory results.

While the tank is percolating, I'm trying to decipher a wiring diagram and figure out where to pull some 12v power that's hot in start + run for the EFI. What a convoluted thing.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Reeves1 on September 29, 2014, 09:39:00 PM
Interesting... .had never seen or heard of cleaning a tank like this.

Would it be possible to start a topic on this in another section ?

ie: How to clean a gas tank

Does it just attack rust ? Or inside coating as well ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on September 29, 2014, 10:30:00 PM
It will remove some, break loose some, and neutralize some. Most will be loose and require some form of help in coming fully loose. Wire brush if you have a tiny arm and can reach in side the tank, or as someone on here said, a length of chain, lug nuts, rocks, just some way to break it loose. BIG problem is that as it dry's, rust will rear its ugly head and start the same ole process all over. Tank would have to be re sealed at once or you might end up with a tank in worse shape than when you started. With new tanks cheap (up north anyway) I don't think the time you will spend along with the cost of the tank sealer will be worth it. It might if you could come up with a cheap sealer, but as Dandy Don use to say to Howard, "if and buts were peanuts and nut, oh what a merry Xmas we would have.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 29, 2014, 11:37:19 PM
The only new replacements I can find are from Spectra and the lowest price I have seen is ~$225 OTD. With a new sender it's closer to $300.  >:(

I figure that I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying to revive the old one.

Interesting....had never seen or heard of cleaning a tank like this.

Would it be possible to start a topic on this in another section ?

ie: How to clean a gas tank

Does it just attack rust ? Or inside coating as well ?

I haven't found a straight answer on whether it takes off coatings (like the tank's galvanize) or not. Once the rust on your steel part is completely converted back into iron, the process effectively stops. The sacrificial anode might still continue to corrode.

There are endless topics on it spread across the net. Search for "electrolytic rust removal washing soda" or "rust removal washing soda" or something with those key words. I zapped some baking soda in the oven for an hour a 400°F  to make washing soda, which is allegedly more effective. I'll find out tomorrow.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 30, 2014, 01:34:31 AM
I recently used the battery charger and washing soda (sodium carbonate - also available at pool stores) to remove rust from a file. It works exceptionally well because there is no abrasion to the file teeth.  I found that the response of the process could be varied considerably by the distance between the file and the angle iron I was using to attract the rust.  I say that because I'm thinking that varying the location of the rebar might help. Perhaps rubber hose on the ends to space it close to, but not in contact with the tank. Then just move it an inch every so often.

Anyway, it is a total trip to watch the process.  Wish I had known about it years ago. My lungs would sure have appreciated it.  I've also considered plugging holes, filling floorboards with the solution and then spacing an iron plate. I'm looking forward to 65SC's outcome on the tank internals.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on September 30, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
Do this process out side as the gas given off is VERY flammable. Not good for the lungs too.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 30, 2014, 06:16:28 PM
It's definitely outside because the tank is filled to the brim and foams over a bit.

There was positive progress with baking soda, but boy, washing soda is a different animal. It looks different when dry, acts differently when dissolving, is rougher on my hands, and is doing a number on the sacrificial anode. I'll dump the tank this evening and see how the inside looks.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 30, 2014, 09:24:18 PM
For the curious... - this is the rust the process pulled off a 1/2" round file.  The piece of angle iron looked like the cleaner sections before I started.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 01, 2014, 11:08:59 PM
I put off dumping the tank until this evening in favor of letting it simmer all last night and today. There were still patches of crud, but it was almost all soft and fairly easy to scrape off.

The whole upper 3/4 of the tank looked like the darkest spots here.  :o
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IMG_1810_zps146cec37.jpg)

A little lot of elbow grease with this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IMG_1813_zpscf22e29f.jpg)

Resulted in 99% of the interior looking like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IMG_1820_zpse8605e4e.jpg)

Pretty sure the light gray parts are the original galvanize, so it looks like the process doesn't remove it, which is good. Overall it's not great, but I think it will buy me some time until a better tank shows up. Tomorrow it goes back in and the rear plumbing can finally start.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on October 02, 2014, 05:30:32 PM
Have you considered any of the tank sealers?  I have heard it both ways where some have had no issues and others say it came off in sheets (attributed to the alcohol in the fuel). Never tried it myself. Anyone with good results to report?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 02, 2014, 07:47:57 PM
I did consider sealer, but didn't think the tank was really worth a $50 experiment. Besides, the tank is back in already and I ain't pulling it back out! There is going to be a clear filter on the pump inlet so I can monitor crud.

Instead of modify the stock vent to be a return, I made a billet hat with an NPT elbow and barb.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/trick-junk_zpsda901d3b.jpg)

I also started tearing the rear interior apart to route the pump wiring, relay, and inertia switch. That's about it for today.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on October 03, 2014, 01:15:04 PM
Just remembered something about gas tanks from the past. I've fixed several tanks that had pin holes in the bottom of the tank by turning the tank upside down and soldering the holes shut. The tank's solder very easy and never re leak. Point is, if the tanks are galvanize coated how does the solder stick? Maybe some other coating is used. And when was the last time you saw a piece of galvanized metal that was rusty?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 07, 2014, 01:22:27 AM
Ended up making a bash plate and mounting the pump under a back seat.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/Ill_pump_you_up_zps61b75ea4.jpg)

And got this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/batter-up_zpsccbce320.jpg)

which will go here:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/batt-in-the-hat_zps455fe98a.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on October 07, 2014, 08:13:29 AM
Kinda like this deal. 8)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/trick-junk_zpsda901d3b.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 08, 2014, 12:52:35 AM
Thanks.  :) The elbow is offset to leave room for a second one in case a dedicated vent was necessary later. The filler cap already is fortunately.

A few more. This came in today:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/I_cam_I_saw_zpsa36a7d99.jpg)

And I'm finished modifying this to have all the extras I want:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/spaghetti_zps4596b531.jpg)

My plan now is to dismantle the whole engine/ECU harness and re-route it how I want through a smaller grommet.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on October 08, 2014, 11:01:46 AM
What are the ECU mods?  Is there a link somewhere regarding the changes? Not sure with a LA-3 they would be applicable to me, but I'm still curious.  I assume the cam is a Ranger/Mustang roller?

So many Turbo conversions seem to "lag" (pun intended - but not). It is encouraging to see yours "spooling" all the time.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 08, 2014, 11:22:03 PM
The ECU is a MegaSquirt-II v3.0 standalone, so the circuits unfortunately do not apply to Ford EEC-IV systems like yours. I had to make changes so it has spark and fuel table switching on the fly, launch control, flat shift, boost control, fan control, tach output, and a shift light.

And yeah, the cam is a Ranger roller. Got it cheap and the old slider with 214,000mi has good patterns, but advanced wear. The RR may go in when I get rid of the upper intake.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 11, 2014, 08:47:48 PM
Are we having fun yet?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/wire_you_doing_this_to_me_zps3dbeb817.jpg)

Survey says: not really.

Pulling the trigger on the hole saw felt exactly like pulling the trigger on the welder when the engine mounts went in.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/hole_picture_zps84ba9da2.jpg)

I went with a smaller 1.25" grommet scavenged from another harness in the 'Bird. The main 10awg EFI power wire goes through the little hole in the middle and will be routed to the main relay and on to the fuse/distribution block. About 2/3 of the wires are run into the cabin already, but I didn't get a photo.

Fun fact: there are about 6.5 quarts of oil in the pan and still nothing shows on the stick.  :o

Things left to do before it can fire:
- run some more wires
- connect heater hoses
- make high current cable for 3G alternator
- make a heap of soldered connections in the MegaSquirt DB-37 plug, probing and checking each circuit as I go
- build a battery tray and hold-down.
- install negative battery cable.
- make new TFI coil bracket to fit the original coil's hole pattern.
- install electric fan

Things left to do before it's relatively finished and/or drivable:
- make a gauge console and install tach/boost/temp/pressure/volt gauges and shift light and bolt the MegaSquirt inside with a permanent DB-9 bulkhead for easy tuning access. Still debating on whether or not to outfit the ECU with an FTDI serial-to-USB adapter. Probably won't.
- install the 8in rear end
- redo the upper intake arrangement so I can close the hood without cutting a huge hole in it.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on October 11, 2014, 09:24:36 PM
Just a few minor details,lol.. ;D ;D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on October 11, 2014, 09:58:37 PM
"Pulling the trigger on the hole saw felt exactly like pulling the trigger on the welder when the engine mounts went in."

Isn't that the truth!

Not sure where you intend to put the battery, but the T/C battery tray (with a little trimming) fits nicely in the drivers front if you move the washer tank.  I used some PVC pipe on the nubs on the bottom of the tray to carry support down to the frame rail. I used the T/C tank and mounted it in the drivers wheel well.

Did you do the remote TFI with the heat sink? Under the hood real estate goes fast, but I found space forward of the drivers side hinge.

Thanks for the update.  I always enjoy projects that are moving forward.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 11, 2014, 10:51:00 PM
My battery is going in the same place. The difference is that I'm using a small group 51R that won't fit in the TC tray. There is no foot on the battery for the tray or hold-down to grab, so I have to either buy one of these: http://optimatrays.com/viewitem.php?type=tray&id=39, copy it, or roll my own.

The TFI module is going to stay put. With my setup it won't be doing anything except sending a low-current tach signal to the ECU. The ECU then has an IGBT coil igniter that I added so it can fire the coil directly. It would have been easier to let the TFI module do the heavy lifting as designed, but I want to be able to completely cut spark for rev limiting. The TFI module has a fail-safe feature where it still fires the coil at base timing if it is cut off from the ECU. Pulling the SPOUT connector does exactly that for checking base timing.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 12, 2014, 09:27:27 PM
Remember the spaghetti monster inhabiting the front of my car in that last picture? Well, it's not there anymore...

...it's inside now.  ::)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/its_baaaack_zpsba51aa57.jpg)

Fortunately most of those wires are going to get shortened by about four feet. I got fed up and decided to omit the knock sensor and pigtail completely until a later date. I don't yet have an amplifier/signal conditioner for it anyway.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 17, 2014, 01:34:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRXoCk4SQpo&list=UU7iT3LM6wThw5nahJg7e3AA
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on October 17, 2014, 07:40:10 AM
Sounds good.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 17, 2014, 09:46:07 AM
Like a tractor motor should.  ;) Thanks.

It's not quite drivable yet, but probably will be by the weekend. I need to bolt down the battery and coil, install the electric fan, and hook up the wideband O₂ sensor. At that point I can start tuning. Once that is mostly sorted, the details will get finished like tucking wires and making a gauge console to hold everything.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 20, 2014, 01:02:34 PM
Wideband connected and billet battery tray almost done.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/oh_no_mr_bill-et_zpsabae7f89.jpg)

Next up: coil bracket and e-fan.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on October 20, 2014, 08:36:49 PM
I said B-U-I-L-D it not Billet!!! ;D   I love all your custom pieces. I'm sure skills from years of experience and a labor of love.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 20, 2014, 09:13:10 PM
And maybe some "necessity is the mother of invention" thrown in. I'm accustomed to playing with Mustangs where anything and everything you can imagine is available. It's completely the opposite with this car where even stock parts are often hard to find. Even if I wanted the battery in the hatch, there aren't any plastic boxes or universal trays small enough for a group 51R!

Solution: build one.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 21, 2014, 10:04:53 PM
Heeey kids, it's time for another update.

Support bracket for battery tray. Done.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/slab_fab_zps465207f8.jpg)

Filling that tray with a battery. Done.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/back-in-batt_zpse04a9005.jpg)

Bracket to put TFI coil in original location. Done.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/brick-a-bracket_zps6311bcf7.jpg)

Now I can get back to fiddling with the EFI.

Tomorrow will bring the first attempt at moving the car under its own power.  :o
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on October 21, 2014, 10:13:15 PM
Nice battery tray..
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 23, 2014, 02:04:10 AM
Thanks. The car rocks when I try to "wiggle" the tray. 8)

When there's nothing on TV, make your own.
http://youtu.be/dBoJ_gKpYjc

This video doesn't do justice to the turbine whine. No one else's do either, so it may be inherent to recording vs. experiencing.

I fought for a long time trying to figure out why the AFR reading was so unstable no matter what I did to the fuel map. Today I traced it to a noisy ground on the wideband controller. Now it's a lot less fussy to tune. Low-load and transients need the most attention now; boost portion of the map are decent enough to move down the list.

I think this car is going to surprise a few people if I can get a hood to cover that lump in the engine bay.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on October 23, 2014, 07:42:41 AM
Sounds like it should haul the mail. 8)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 23, 2014, 11:34:07 AM
With the way it feels, I'd say it's easily capable of a sub-14 quarter mile even on this groggy tune. The video doesn't capture it, but that quick  little 1-2-3-4 jaunt was up to 55mph. :o I can safely flog it a bit with the rich upper map, but the WBO2 is in the stock turbo outlet and I'm trying not to roast the sensor. It already overheated once. :P

Post-swap observation: this car needs stiffer front springs! It sits at least an inch lower in the front now and is very soft and easy to bottom-out.

Here's a parting glamour shot since I probably won't get anything done again until next week.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/glamour_shot-post_drive_zps30e123f1.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on October 23, 2014, 12:26:13 PM
All we did for springs was use a 74/80 Pinto spring. They are longer than the 71/73 springs and will need a coil or two removed. The more you cut off the stiffer the spring becomes. I try'd Walsh springs and there was no difference. One of Walsh's crew told me that the spring they sold were for a V-6 Pinto wagon with air.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 23, 2014, 07:17:28 PM
I had heard that Mustang II springs were an option. Stock ride height is preferable, but a little higher spring rate would be fine. The car has no swaybar yet, so any help in the front end counts.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on October 23, 2014, 09:51:13 PM
I'm experiencing the same with my Turbo/2.3 '73 wagon. Too much weight and too little spring rate. There is a noticeable lift upon strong acceleration.  It would be nice if there was a variable rate spring from another application we could use the springs from.

  Over in my 1960's Studebaker world the hot ticket for front springs is an option, variable rate spring from the rear of mid to late 80's Buick Olds, Pontiac FWD cars. Maybe Pinto's have some unknown, oddball donor spring that might work too.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 24, 2014, 12:55:28 AM
Mine lifts a lot even under moderate throttle.

Just have to know the spring outside diameter, inside diameter, free length, car weight+bias and measure/estimate the compressed length at ride height to arrive at a spring rate. That's all... ::)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 29, 2014, 09:39:21 PM
Been running the car a lot and poring over resultant datalogs. I also fixed a noisy and very aggravating voltage problem with the wideband controller. For no obvious reason the AFR would dip almost full rich and the sensor would enter warmup mode. After some thought, I suspected that instantaneous voltage drops were causing it to reset. A 3300μF cap accross the controller's power and ground fixed 99% of that. Now I have to do the same thing for the ECU.

I installed one of those parts-store adjustable fan controllers and an unimpressive 12" electric fan. It keeps the car under 200° most of the time at least. We'll see how inadequate the cooling system is when summer comes back around. I had two 16" fans, but one wouldn't fit and the one that did couldn't be reconfigured as a pusher.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/biggest_fan_zps10665fb6.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/fan_controller_zps6f4059e0.jpg)

Oh, and video (watch it on YouTube for the full view):
http://youtu.be/mgqdjY86-d0 (http://youtu.be/mgqdjY86-d0)

I just realized that I could be driving around Paso Robles in that video. Scenery looks just like that.

It also still has the stock rear end with 3.55s, so that's where some of the punch comes from. Hopefully it doesn't break before I can get the 8" installed.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on October 29, 2014, 10:49:00 PM
How bout one 16" fan should be better than a 12" I would think???.. .. BTW, cool vid sounds good..
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 02, 2014, 12:01:47 AM
Well yeah a 16" is better, but:

1.) '71-73 cars have no room between the rad and water pump for a fan. ( I can barely snake a belt between the rad and pulley bolts). This means that a pusher fan is the only option.

2.) The 16" fan I have that could be reconfigured as a pusher was too big to fit on the front of the radiator. It hit the core support and hood latch support.

3.) The nice and thin 16" SPAL fan I have can only be used as a puller.

4.) I already had the 12" and it does fit.

I may end up modifying or ditching the hood latch parts depending on what happens with the hood in order to clear the intake. If I have to use hood pins, then a 16" fan is the obvious choice.

Does this look like fun?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/badvoltagegrap3_zps00b9c485.png)

Well, it's NOT. Those spikes and dips on the battery voltage (bottom graph in white) were causing a lot of problems, especially the low voltage dips. This noise is likely coming from the low-z injector circuit and is compounded by having to use PWM current limiting because they're low-z. When people said the MegaSquirt v3.0 board was sensitive to noise, I thought they meant external sources like RFI from non-resistor spark plugs. Well, it's actually internal noise from flawed design.  >:( There are some ways to fix it with jumpers and trace-cutting, but I elected to:

(1.) install a filter capacitor on the injector flyback circuitry. This brought the voltage swings down to a tolerable level, but they still spiked between 11 and 15v. I knew it could be better, so I

(2.) put another filter cap on the bootloader header. Finally, rock-solid voltage readings.  8)

Now that noise is no longer an issue, acceleration enrichment is proving to be a tougher nut to crack even without venturing into the realm of Enhanced Acceleration Enrichment (EAE).
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on November 02, 2014, 01:18:32 AM
I run my fan (yes, a pusher) out of a cage. It allows me to run as large a blade as possible (not sure of the size and it is getting chilly tonight). Power comes from the factory relay box. I also enlarged the cradle and use a stock Pinto 20" radiator.  It allows me to maintain the factory hood latch.  Never have a cooling issue.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on November 02, 2014, 07:06:26 AM
Looks like a nice fit..
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 02, 2014, 06:26:03 PM
Sheesh, I didn't even think to take the fan out of the lawsuit avoidance enclosure finger guard. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/smilies/20c18b37.gif)

Oh well. It's staying fairly cool now that the daytime temps are in the 60s, but it gets up pretty high before the thermostat will open. Might have to put a bleeder hole in it even though I made sure it seated past the bypass hole in the housing like it's supposed to.

Anyone remember these?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/gtech_zps8b7d85fa.jpg)

I bought one about 13 years ago (when they were $140 and the dollar had 300% the buying power!) and still have it. The bad news is that it only does 1/4mi readings, not 1/8. I don't really want to pull my car up to 90+mph yet, so 0-60mph tests may be the only thing I do for now.

Oh yeah, and I'm thinking about installing this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/dueling-wheels_zps9aaed20c.jpg)

I think it was supposed to compete with Grant because it has what looks like a Grant-compatible adapter. Too bad it fits a Toyota Landcruiser and not a Ford.  :P
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on November 02, 2014, 09:50:48 PM
Nice wheel, should be able to get a Ford adapter...
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 08, 2014, 05:22:36 PM
Yeah, Ford adapters are all over the place. Back burner for now though.

I haven't played with the G-Tech yet, but have been doing (much) more testing and tuning. Acceleration enrichment is coming along and the closed-loop idle is fun stuff.

An open downpipe is starting to $uck. The bass notes are so powerful that good earplugs are only marginally effective against a headache. Good exhaust is on the horizon and bad muffled exhaust may be in the immediate future.

On a side note, I want to discuss why "turbo lag" is such a frequently misused term. My car came with the largest T3 of the entire 2.3T lineup, a turbo nearly as large as what GM put on their 3.8L Buick Grand National. This graph (click it for full size) illustrates why genuine turbo lag has been an urban legend for several decades:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/we-dont-need-no-stinkin-lag_zps9747a803.gif)

Span A is where I went from 27% throttle to just 44% and got 4.5psi of boost in 0.132 second.

Span B is the entire event from tip-in to 15.3psi boost, which is 0.924s. Subtract the non-WOT time above and it took the turbo 0.792s to gain 11psi. Engine speed only increased by ~150rpm so that was all turbo; no help from the engine. 2900rpm is well above the boost threshold for any 2.3T which is why there was hardly any lag at all with this 33+ year-old technology. Mashing the gas below boost threshold and waiting for it to wind up isn't lag, it's a problem of technique.  8)
 
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on November 08, 2014, 10:27:03 PM
Why is it I feel if I came to your house I'd see these graphs framed and hung on the wall. LOL  You are obviously having way too much fun with lines and numbers.

What are you running for an exhaust? I had to pinch off the second muffler feed of the stock pipes. Not the best for sure. I even have the CAT still attached. Just a little bend in the pipe got me to a muffler under the rear seat.  And, you're not running an IC are you?  Any plans?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 08, 2014, 11:22:30 PM
Why is it I feel if I came to your house I'd see these graphs framed and hung on the wall. LOL  You are obviously having way too much fun with lines and numbers.

You wouldn't see anything framed until I can get the AFR to stay rock solid through transients.  ;)

Quote
What are you running for an exhaust? I had to pinch off the second muffler feed of the stock pipes. Not the best for sure. I even have the CAT still attached. Just a little bend in the pipe got me to a muffler under the rear seat.  And, you're not running an IC are you?  Any plans?

Exhaust? Barely any! I have the stock downpipe and a 45° elbow on the end facing outward by the trans crossmember. It's a little rough on the eardrums. The 'Bird had a generic turbo muffler that I saved, so that is probably what I'll use until a full-length exhaust system gets put on.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 12, 2014, 07:19:34 PM
Not really an update so much as an observation.

My car seems a little short-legged with 3.55s. By any other standard they wouldn't and I wondered why, so I crunched the driveline numbers.

3.55s with the much shorter tires on my Pinto are functionally equivalent to putting a 3.94 ratio in the the Thunderbird that the driveline came from.

To match the 'Birds original 3.45s while taking tire height into consideration, it would only need a 3.12 ratio out back if it existed. I was concerned that the 3.00 MII rear end was going to make it a slug, but this is reassuring. 3.25s and a T-Lok might be a good all-around combo in the future.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on November 12, 2014, 07:57:47 PM
I wish there was a universal standard for discussing tires AND rearend ratios. Something like revolutions per distance (say engine revolutions per 100 feet of tread travel distance)?  Because.., as we both know they go hand in hand. Whenever one of them (singular) is compared it becomes apples to oranges.

  When I got my 8" it was a 3.00 and I had 215-60-14" tires on the rear. If I got on the boost I didn't notice a significant lack of power. What I did notice was in everyday driving the RPM range was "off" for a given speed.  What I mean is at a normal driving speed one gear was too low and the next too high. It was always missing the "sweet spot" if you will.

I went to 175-70-13" because I got a set of Rallye wheels (and got three, new Sumitumo's off CL for $35 - for all three!). It helped a little, but not enough.  Eventually I got a 3.40 rear and I have been very happy with it. Everyday driving is much better.  I'll be moving up to 205-60-13" if I ever get off my butt and mount them.

I would concur with you that 3.25 would be the ideal ratio (again a tough call given what tire size???). There is a 3.18 - unfortunately in the 6-3/4" rearend.  The 3.40 probably winds out a little (not much, but a little) too much and doesn't take full advantage of the torque when the boost comes on.  Like I said above, I had no acceleration issues with the 3.00, it was just the general driving that was unpleasant.

Unfortunately in the 8" Pinto/Mustang II rear you get 3.00, 3.40 or 3.55.  I even spoke to a rearend Pro (he was the guy snagging all the 8" center sections at Pick Your Part) and he said from the factory the 3.25 was very limited. Aftermarket is the place to get them.  So, it is 3.40 for me and I'll "tune" my final outcome with tire size. THankfully my Sunbeam Tiger and the Pinto share the same bolt pattern. Now if I ever get the Tiger going.... .

BTW, the T/C's came with 3.55 manual or 3.73 Auto - but they had much larger 225-60-16" tires.  And so like I said above it would be nice to have a universal standard to compare all these tire/rear numbers by.  I could do the math and use my own scale, but what does that mean to the rest of the world?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on November 13, 2014, 07:08:21 AM
Maybe this can help.
http://www.differentials.com/technical-help/differential-gear-ratio-calculator (http://www.differentials.com/technical-help/differential-gear-ratio-calculator)

http://www.merkurtech.com/merkurtech/calculators/rpmmph.php (http://www.merkurtech.com/merkurtech/calculators/rpmmph.php)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 13, 2014, 02:23:58 PM
I wish there was a universal standard for discussing tires AND rearend ratios. Something like revolutions per distance (say engine revolutions per 100 feet of tread travel distance)?  Because.., as we both know they go hand in hand. Whenever one of them (singular) is compared it becomes apples to oranges.

What I did is determine the percentage difference in rear tire radius and use that as a multiplier. In this case, my 185/70-R13s are 10.5% shorter than the Thunderbird's 225/60-R15s. 1.105 x 3.45 = 3.81. 3.55s are 2.9% steeper than 3.45s, so 3.81 x 1.029 = 3.92.

I did use tire revolutions per mile for determining approximate engine RPM for a given speed.

Quote
When I got my 8" it was a 3.00 and I had 215-60-14" tires on the rear. If I got on the boost I didn't notice a significant lack of power. What I did notice was in everyday driving the RPM range was "off" for a given speed.  What I mean is at a normal driving speed one gear was too low and the next too high. It was always missing the "sweet spot" if you will.

Something that 3.00s are going to do to my car is make 5th gear useful in fewer situations, but I think the other gears will be have better spacing at the same time.

Currently I'm looking at 3000/1900rpm in 2nd/3rd at 25mph and an almost identical split at 40mph in 3rd/4th. 3.00s will shift that to 2600 in 2nd and 2600in 3rd.

Quote
BTW, the T/C's came with 3.55 manual or 3.73 Auto - but they had much larger 225-60-16" tires.  And so like I said above it would be nice to have a universal standard to compare all these tire/rear numbers by.  I could do the math and use my own scale, but what does that mean to the rest of the world?

Just to be more specific, '83-86 TCs came with 3.45 gears; '87-88 TC manuals came with 3.55s and '87-88 automatics got 3.73s.

I guess a gearing equivalence ratio isn't something that online calculators address directly. Speedometer gear calculators involve it indirectly, but it's up to the user to apply it.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 21, 2014, 01:21:56 PM
I put a 2.5" louvered glasspack and side-facing turndown on the car last night and it cut down the snap and turbine whistle dramatically. It also made the car quieter and better-sounding outside, but made low-frequency interior resonance about 10x worse! Seriously, -30dB earplugs are completely ineffective against it now. A shooter's headset works much better, but that's no solution (and it's probably illegal like headphones). Back to the open downpipe for now. My tentative goal is to have a full and finished 2.5" exhaust system before Christmas.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on November 21, 2014, 02:26:02 PM
Isn't resonance the worse!  I have a 318Valiant and between 1,900-2,600 RPM it seems like an acoustic weapon. At 2,600 RPM it is like someone pulled the plug and it gets quiet. No crossover pipe.  I have 2" off the manifolds dump into a 3" pipe and then an acoustic resonance chamber called a Flowmaster muffler. But hey, it sounds awesome at idle LOL.

It would be an interesting court challenge regarding the passive ear protectors.  The law states (I believe) that it is the wired headphones that are the issue.  And it poses the question then if deaf people should be allowed to drive???  Seems you could argue you are being discriminated against as a hearing capable person. It also brings up the point of jeopardy that to comply with the law you then go deaf and that is worse than using the ear protectors.

OK, I've WAY over thought this and a cop would probably just say, "Fix the D*mn exhaust."  I just have a problem with laws that aren't thought through to their logical end.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 21, 2014, 03:27:44 PM
Isn't resonance the worse!  I have a 318Valiant and between 1,900-2,600 RPM it seems like an acoustic weapon. At 2,600 RPM it is like someone pulled the plug and it gets quiet. No crossover pipe.  I have 2" off the manifolds dump into a 3" pipe and then an acoustic resonance chamber called a Flowmaster muffler. But hey, it sounds awesome at idle LOL.

That is exactly why I refuse to use Flowmaster mufflers on my own vehicles. They drone in more installations than not and in some of the most popular applications like Mustangs, they drone very badly. There are things that can be done to mitigate it like installing a Helmholtz resonator to cancel the resonant frequenies, but that shouldn't be necessary. I had some 40 series Flows under an '89 Mustang hatchback(notoriously prone to resonance) and would induce headaches between about 1500 and 2300rpm with the stock h-pipe. An x-pipe helped some, but not enough.

Fun fact: '87-93 5.0 Mustangs had mufflers that were two different sizes.

I'll be using a perforated-core oval muffler in the stock location on my Pinto.

Quote
It would be an interesting court challenge regarding the passive ear protectors.  The law states (I believe) that it is the wired headphones that are the issue.  And it poses the question then if deaf people should be allowed to drive???  Seems you could argue you are being discriminated against as a hearing capable person. It also brings up the point of jeopardy that to comply with the law you then go deaf and that is worse than using the ear protectors.

I found that CA vehicle code section 24700directly addresses this. In typical gooberment  fashion, there is a lot of room for interpretation:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d12/c5/a3.5/27400 (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d12/c5/a3.5/27400)

I'd argue my case with paragraph (d.).

Quote
OK, I've WAY over thought this and a cop would probably just say, "Fix the D*mn exhaust."  I just have a problem with laws that aren't thought through to their logical end.

The citing officer would probably give me a moving violation for the earplugs and a fix-it ticket for the exhaust.  ::)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on March 09, 2015, 11:32:54 PM
It's been 3.5 months already? Sheesh.

I ordered some new coil springs today to hopefully fix the sagging front end. I also picked up a (free) hood yesterday that I was going to cut up to fit over the engine, but I think it's too rough to warrant straightening it out.

I'm also shopping for exhaust parts and trying to decide if I want 2.5" or 3.0" out the back. 3" would mean never having to redo it if the power was substantially increased in the future. It's not going to be a primary driver anymore, so now that's an option. If only I hadn't sold that Holset HX40 turbo a while back...
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Srt on March 10, 2015, 02:45:52 AM
If it doesn't go low 13's or high 12's with what you have now there's something not right.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 04, 2015, 09:27:26 PM
Low 13s could be a possibility although my butt dyno is pretty inaccurate.

https://youtu.be/nMazQ4C9tk4

News:
- Got a set of 2.3 "Pinto" low mount alternator brackets....bu t they're not from any Ford car.  ;) I have to modify the alternator case, but that shouldn't be difficult with machine shop access.
- I have a Borg Warner S200 turbo in the mail. Came off a diesel, needs a compressor seal, but not bad for $63 otd. The compressor map is enormous and it will support ~220hp and 15psi up to about 480hp and 40psi. 8)
- Got my springs. Now I just need a balljoint separator so I can install them.

Next week I'll probably order a 3" muffler and tubing. Thought I was going to stick with 2.5", but eh, might as well have room to grow for that turbo.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Srt on April 05, 2015, 03:37:39 AM


It also still has the stock rear end with 3.55s, so that's where some of the punch comes from. Hopefully it doesn't break before I can get the 8" installed.



with 20 to 30 lbs and that gear and with the tires you have (in the pics) you should be able to get into the low 13's high 12's in 3rd gear  in a 1/4 mile.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 05, 2015, 10:35:08 AM
I can certainly attest to the front end boobing up and down with a 2.3 Turbo in a 71-73 car. What springs are you installing?  I look forward to the see the results. Friday I was at the Sun Valley yards and considered getting 2.8 front spring. But, the Pinto and Bobcat (wagons, both V-6's) that were there were both void of their front suspension. :-(  My fault, those cars have been there for months and I missed my opportunity.

In the video, what RPM are you shifting at?  With my IHI and 2-1/4" exhaust there isn't much of anything past 4,500-5,000 RPM. Straight out drag racing type of acceleration isn't much of a wow factor. I find wider eyes from my passengers when I'm in 3rd gear going about 35-40 MPH and slowly squeeze the gas pedal down.  Where as other 4 cylinder cars seem to barely acknowledge the input the turbo Pinto acts like it was on a bungee cord and it had just been let go. :-)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 05, 2015, 12:36:21 PM
What springs are you installing?

I got some for a 2.3 with A/C.

Quote
In the video, what RPM are you shifting at?

My guess was around 5000-5200. Upon looking at the audio waveform from the video, the soft limiter hit at 5135. After dragging out the tuning laptop to see the actual settings, the hard limiter is 5500 with a 400rpm soft zone, so the soft limiter comes in at 5100. Whew! I spend too much time with engineers...

Ultimately that rev limiter should be pushed up. A lot. It's not done pulling at 5k, so maybe I'll set it a few hundred above the point that power noses over. I think the factory limiter was about 6500rpm.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 05, 2015, 04:30:23 PM
Thanks, I'm looking forward to your evaluation of these springs given I'm basically in the same situation.  Some talk about the V-6 springs, but I'm wondering what the weight difference between a 2.3 and a 2.8 is. I'd be curious to know if they are the same and/or if the A/C springs are stronger on one side???
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 05, 2015, 10:37:58 PM
The 2.8 non-A/C springs cross reference to a 2.3 with A/C. The difference in rate between a 2.8/AC and non-A/C application is only about 11 lbs/in. It's not at all like going +200 lb/in an old Mustang. That is exactly what will happen when I put 620lb coils in my '68.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 15, 2015, 11:08:56 PM
Things that make you go hmmm...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/dueling-hairdriers_zpsxxreonab.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 23, 2015, 07:38:06 PM
It looked frightful when I opened the box,
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/grime_amp_punishment_zpsxsnpg0cy.jpg)

but not anymore.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/I_walk_the_turbine_zpsudoczq8w.jpg)

It's a Borg Warner S200 series with a 56mm inducer that makes it known as an S256. It does not have an extended-tip compressor, but will still support ~450+hp and 50+psi. The turbine is a 0.70 A/R so it should spool well, but it's only wastegated on one side. I'm not sure how well it will control boost that way since Holsets frequently creep with similar housings. I thought about modifying the wastegate arm/puck with a dual setup and drilling another wastegate passage, but the flapper is sealed behind a peened-on cap. I would have to spot mill the divots out to remove it without knowing if it could be reinstalled... just to see what's under it. No one seems to know anything detailed about these turbos either. Guess I need bigger injectors in any case.

If it turns out to have good seals and bearings, then it will be the best $63 I've spent in a while.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Srt on April 24, 2015, 03:56:27 AM
what was the original application for this turbo?

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 24, 2015, 09:56:36 AM
It's from a diesel and judging by the original color, likely a Caterpillar. Don't know if it's from a generator, pump, or road application and I didn't really care because I could tell from the photos that it had at least a 53mm compressor.... just a bonus to find it was 56mm.

This turbo is comparable a Holset HX/HY35 and HE-34_ series, only a bit more robust and it has an even larger compressor map.

In other news, yesterday I ended up with some 13" Minilite-style wheels and tires.  8) Gonna pick up lugnuts tomorrow.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 24, 2015, 09:33:44 PM
What is the expected outcome of the turbo change? Or better said, what did you see lacking with the original setup?

Love the Minilites (waiting for pictures), but will 13" tires be sufficient - with the new turbo?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 25, 2015, 10:59:12 AM
What is the expected outcome of the turbo change? Or better said, what did you see lacking with the original setup?

Currently, nothing is lacking with the stock turbo.

However, in the future I plan to add a ported head, ported intake, ported E6 or tubular manifold, a cam, and more boost. My 60-trim/0.63 A/R T3 will support close to 300rwhp, but it won't be happy nor efficient doing it. It's very likely to lose the thrust bearing at that level or even break the shaft. The S256 will play nice at ~220rwhp all the way up to numbers that would fold the stock rods.

Quote
Love the Minilites (waiting for pictures), but will 13" tires be sufficient - with the new turbo?

They're barely sufficient at stock 2.3T power levels.  8) I'll be using longer gears when the 8" goes in, so that will tame it a bit.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/wheely_nice_zpsii3upijq.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 25, 2015, 10:09:23 PM
Really, I'm trying not to spam this thread, but....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/wheel_difference_zpsqxvjqyb4.jpg)

Those wheels sure change the look of the car.  :D

Before that I was playing with the EFI a bit trying new settings and took it out for a spin. It's been raining sporadically all day and the road was damp so I knew traction would be reduced. I went a few miles and turned around. Coming back, I eased through first to avoid the inevitable wheel spin. After an easy shift into second, I rolled into the throttle. The boost came up and it started spinning. I had to pedal it again and again, "Bwaaap! Bwaaaaap! Bwaaaaaaap!" Running out of gear, I pulled into third and pedaled the throttle some more. Finally into fourth and suddenly it sounded like the clutch was slipping. You know when the engine RPM wavers without your speed changing? Like that. "But it's new and I have a stock setup!"

There was a difference though....the clutch wasn't slipping, but the back end was squirming from side to side! Fading into the rear view was an ethereal blue haze and two faint black shadows behind each tire.

I have never driven a car before that would do that.  :o The grin was ear-to-ear....
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Srt on April 26, 2015, 03:14:42 AM
what kind of boost is it pumping now? (before the newer one is adapted-before all the other engine/head mods)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 26, 2015, 07:59:44 PM
All the boost controller parts are stock which physically limits maximum boost to ~15psi per Ford's spec. The data logs indicate 16psi at the manifold though. Ford's ECU only allowed max boost above 4000rpm; I have mine set to allow it as soon as the turbo can make it and that is usually by 3000rpm. I'll raise it a bit when I have an intercooler.

I also found out before the momentous drive yesterday that the distributor came loose and retarded about 5°. Fixing that likely contributed to the wheel spin. I recall noticing that the car felt less gutsy before that.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 27, 2015, 12:58:38 AM
Like I said above, "I love the Minilites."  I remember your car on CL for some time, and only 8 miles away in Simi Valley I was often tempted to go look at it. Now seeing it with those wheels..., what was I thinking??? (about not seeing this car). But it is obviously in very capable hands so I can still vicariously live out its presence through your wallet and effort. LOL

My donor '88 T/C had the limited slip rear. Even with 225-60-16" tires (and added weight) I'll never forget driving in the rain the first time. 1st gear was just like normally pulling from a stop. But, the boost was just ahead of the clutch release for 2nd gear and the whole rear of the car went sideways about 2 feet. I wasn't trying to "power" anything. It was just how I normally drove (and rather conservative at that). On a dry road you couldn't tell me from grandma and her Oldsmobile. But, boost coming on - on a wet road is a bit like opening a door just as a strong gust of wind comes along and RIPS... the - knob - out - of - your- hand!

I don't have the high HP dreams some of you guys have. My favorite thing to do with the (stock) Turbo Pinto is to leisurely get it up to about 40 MPH in 3rd gear. Then slowly push down on the pedal as the car rapidly gathers speed and watch the passenger turn their head as their grinning face expresses a silent "WHOAAAA!"
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 28, 2015, 02:57:54 PM
Thanks. I thought I got a pretty clean car for the money especially after seeing where prices have gone just in the last year. Last Thursday marked one year that I've had the Pinto.

Yours has two things going for it; being a wagon (more traction) and having the IHI turbo (faster response). I've heard reports of people being able to get boost as low as 2200rpm in '87-88 Turbo Coupes.

Regarding the Minilites, they transformed the character of the car as well. The old tires were 185/70R13 on stock rims and they were prone to wallowing and wandering. The 'Lites have the same size shoes, but are a few inches wider. The steering now is crisp and very direct. They also transfer a lot more road harshness to the chassis, but that's livable until the suspension gets improved.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Srt on April 28, 2015, 09:57:10 PM
The increased responsiveness is due the tire being stretched over the wider rims stiffening the sidewall, reducing slip angle, increasing the size of the tread contact patch &, to put it simply; making the tire tread do the work
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 02, 2015, 06:57:59 PM
And they shake quite a bit above 63mph by my GPS. I'm not sure if it's a balance issue caused by missing weights or if the wheels aren't aligned on the hubs. I'm going to make some concentric alignment rings and find out.

Another new problem surfaced when I took it out yesterday; the mixture leaned-out one full point (1.0) in the lower load idle and cruise areas. I thought maybe the fuel filter was clogged already, but the pressure is where it should be for a stock regulator. I thought maybe the injector baskets were getting clogged, but the mixture dips rich (~11.5) under boost like it should, so I'm scratching my head for the moment.

A previous suspicion has also been confirmed: the stock 2.0 radiator is not going to cool that engine in the coming summer heat.

Here, have some deceptively flattering beauty shots with the new wheels:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/stanced_yo_zpssqaaq3kl.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/baby_got_stance_zpsz8u2pmux.jpg)

I might keep the front end that height and lower the back to match. It looks good IMO.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 09, 2015, 09:00:41 PM
A small step in the direction of progress:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/too_cool_for_cool_zpskqi15is8.jpg)

Don't know if it will fit anywhere in my Pinto as-is, but at least it's about the right size.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on May 16, 2015, 07:50:42 PM
I got some for a 2.3 with A/C.

I believe that would be out of a 74 and up car, aren't there springs a couple inches longer than the 71 to 73 cars ? if so how do they fit ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 16, 2015, 11:40:00 PM
They were for a '76, but I don't know how the length compares; they're still in the box. I got a balljoint separator last week thinking I would need it for the spring change and found out that Ford changed springs by unbolting the lower control arm from the crossmember instead. Oh well, more tools for the collection.  ::) Maybe I can use it for the Granada brake swap on my Mustang...

Several days ago I go some exhaust parts in, but have been so busy at work this week that I'm only now posting pics.  :(

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/can-do_attitude_zpsemtoa1tz.jpg)

I made the executive decision to put 3" exhaust under the car. That tubing looks a lot bigger in person...
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: don33 on May 17, 2015, 02:18:00 AM
I'll be waiting to see if those springs work out. I think I will need some new and a bit stiffer too.  and 3" exhaust tubing, well yeah, what else would you put under there ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on June 21, 2015, 05:45:17 PM
I haven't done anything to the '72 for a month, but I did just get home with a '77 parts car.  :o

Now I have a spare 2.3 engine, a sway bar, '74+ front brakes, low-mount alternator brackets, more 2.3 frame brackets, oil pan, full window chrome that's mostly good, and a lot of other stuff. I figure the parts I want would set me back about what I paid for the car, so anything I can peddle is a bonus.

The interior is disgusting though. It was parked with the truck lid open and a window partly down, so lots of rodent access.  :P
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 31, 2015, 05:06:21 PM
I haven't done anything to the '72 for a month

Make that five months.  :-[ The weather is finally getting conducive to working outside, but now the bugs are really bad.

I dragged out some exhaust parts and am attempting to scare up a shifter boot that I think is stored around here somewhere, but the big thing is that I'm trying to get my hands on a TIG welder now. I want get something done, but also want to put off welding jobs until I have better equipment. My head is swimming with all the potential projects I could do with a TIG....intake plumbing, intake manifold, spring perches, bike frames, subframe connectors, boxed control arms, turbo manifolds.... 8)

Pulled the alternator bracket off the '77 parts car and to my surprise, the cast lower bracket is iron....and heavy. Not real thrilled about that, but I guess it will do. The aluminum marine 2.3 bracket I have would require mods to the alternator case which is not a big deal, but it makes alternator replacement more problematic.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 76hotrodpinto on November 01, 2015, 12:46:10 AM
I love my esab tig unit. All the tigs I've had the chance to try have been good, so maybe the esab is just typical, but I love it. Having never used a torch for anything but heating and cutting, it took some getting used to. So clean and controllable, compared to a wire feed unit. And once you get the "dime stack" down, it's just weld and done! Very rare to get even a single spatter.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 07, 2015, 09:24:57 PM
My standards are low; I'm just looking forward to welding indoors.  ;D What are the specs on your Esab?

Here's what followed me home this week:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/synchonicity-300_zpsvhl3iqp4.jpg)

It's obviously an old transformer machine and is a behemoth at 700lbs+, but it probably won't lose much value if and when I decide to upgrade.

Also got that 200cf argon tank, some bundles of E70S, 4043 and 308L filler and some packs of red and green 1/16 & 3/32 tungsten. Next on the list is some spare collets and maybe a gas lens kit...and a 100A line into the shop to feed it. The existing 60A will only let it run at about 50%.  :o I might just make the collets myself if there is any copper bar stock in the "odds 'n' ends" bin. You know, $200 in shop time to make $10 worth of stuff.  ;)

Welding project ideas for the Pinto:
- exhaust
- intake+intercooler tubing
- low-profile upper intake
- subframe connectors
- tubular turbo manifold
- ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 76hotrodpinto on November 07, 2015, 10:38:20 PM
My esab is similar to your beast. It's an old dta 200(ac/dc square wave). I love it, but it's hardly portable. That's why I still run around with my single phase mig so much. I have my tig set up at a shop that's wired for multiple huge kilns, so got lucky there.

And yeah, I totally understand spending way to much effort on making things, rather than purchasing for way less,(titanium door hinge pins).

Looks like you got a good welder to play on now... so I guess we won't be seeing you around here much, for a while.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 25, 2015, 11:39:18 PM
I'll try not to go MIA too badly.  ;)

Welder seems to work better than I can, so that's a start. Found out that aluminized tubing is hard to clean well enough to TIG. Accidentally bumped the pedal with my hood up and saw spots for a good while. Nuked a few 1/16" electrodes and dipped several others, but am generally enjoying how clean and quiet TIG welding is.

The #26 torch is a real (big) handful, so the plan is to get a #9 setup with some gas lenses asap.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on November 25, 2015, 11:59:03 PM
Hummm..., making me thankful for my Lincoln Mig-Pak 100.  Welding was too expensive a hobby for me to attempt perfection. It is more like a necessary evil. My welding never gets better, but it has allowed me ample practice to perfect my grinding. LOL

BTW, is that your 2.0 and transmission on Craigslist? Saw it and the Lake Hughes pin on the map and thought the dots might connect.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on December 13, 2015, 10:55:44 AM
Nothing much done to the car, but this should make it a little easier to practice melting parts for it:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/mine_is_bigger_zps5qknc2mp.jpg)

That huge thing on the right is a #26 torch that I got with the machine. On the left is the new WP-9. It's like holding a pencil compared to a pick axe. The plan is to make a gas diverter so both torches can stay connected since the machine is old and doesn't have quick connectors.

BTW, is that your 2.0 and transmission on Craigslist? Saw it and the Lake Hughes pin on the map and thought the dots might connect.

That's mine. I'd like to keep the engine, but have no use or space for it anymore. Someone is supposed to come out today and get it and both 4-speeds. That means I have to finish pulling one out of the '77 this morning.  :o
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on December 24, 2015, 11:32:31 PM
A little bit closer to having flush hood fitment again.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/son_of_flangy_mutt_zps2ykymq6l.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on December 25, 2015, 06:45:20 AM
Nice.   8)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 17, 2016, 08:42:54 PM
Nice weather finally coincided with a free weekend where I actually felt like doing something. I tore apart the '77's front end to later find out that none of the parts will work on my '72 except the springs. Double-u tee eff Ford.

Being unable to find any good information about how much to cut the springs, I winged it and simply made them the same length as my old '72 originals. It was a big PITA just to do one side and I was worried it was going to be too high, but it turned out to sit totally level so far.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/NotSoLowNoMo_zpsurqaisem.jpg)

Hopefully next weekend I'll have the other side done too. Stock wheels are going back on for now because the Minilites have rotten tires.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 18, 2016, 12:44:11 AM
Good to see you back after a long absence. Yes, I'm looking forward to the outcome because we are basically in the same situation with the weight of the turbo motor in a pre-74 Pinto.  Are these 2.3 or V-6 springs? And did the donor car have A/C? Getting all my "honey do" list stuff done this spring, but hope to get to my cars in a month or so.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 76hotrodpinto on April 21, 2016, 09:26:12 AM
I have almost all my front end parts together now too.I didn't realize the early ones had different suspension too, bummer! It's fun to have all this power and speed, but it's a bit like "master blaster" from mad max, but no "master", just all "blaster"!
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: robertwwithee on April 21, 2016, 03:40:47 PM
I love the mini lites.  Period correct for the era.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 22, 2016, 08:24:00 PM
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but I didn't get any email notification of replies.  ???

Good to see you back after a long absence. Yes, I'm looking forward to the outcome because we are basically in the same situation with the weight of the turbo motor in a pre-74 Pinto.  Are these 2.3 or V-6 springs? And did the donor car have A/C? Getting all my "honey do" list stuff done this spring, but hope to get to my cars in a month or so.

Thanks. Work had me flattened for a while, but the longer daylight, nicer weather, and freer weekends are letting me get back to what I want to do.  8) Even the Mustang is going to get some desperately needed attention and I haven't worked on that since.....befo re I got the Pinto(two years ago this week).  :o I'm kind of looking for a pre-'76 Ford Courier pickup too...

The springs were from a 2.3 car with A/C and I took off barely more than 1/2 coil, but a whole coil probably would have been alright too. I have a new pair of the same springs, but figured I would cut the old disposable ones and get everything where I liked it before chopping on new parts. Also worth noting is that the old 2.3 springs were shorter than the new ones by at least an inch.

It's fun to have all this power and speed, but it's a bit like "master blaster" from mad max, but no "master", just all "blaster"!

LOL!

I found out the early spindles are shorter between the ball joints and the control arms are different lengths than the later ones. The spring pockets appear quite a bit different too. So far it looks like using the later parts on an early car means welding-in the entire crossmember.

I love the mini lites.  Period correct for the era.

Thanks. Funny you say that because the wheels and tires were originally on a Sunbeam Tiger.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 23, 2016, 12:20:16 AM
Thanks for the spring info.  Let me know how it rides when you get the opportunity.

One thing I like about having a Pinto and a Sunbeam Tiger is they share the same bolt pattern.  Another nice period wheel are the Cosmics.  There was one, special built, fastback Tiger and it has the Cosmics. Turns out when I got mine it has them too.  They are somewhat rare. Picture: 1. Tiger with Cosmics (donor T/C in background too) 2. Harrington Tiger. Oddly enough, same wheel, just painted differently. I'll be copying the Harrington scheme. Talk about abandoned projects, the Tiger hasn't seen a wrench since 2004!  But, some day soon ........ ..... ... .. .
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: robertwwithee on April 23, 2016, 11:12:32 AM
My replica minilights/panasports came off a lotus 7.  I bought real panasports and the replica set from owner.  13x7's, offset makes them look like 13x6 though.  Replicas went on pink pinto and panasports go on my 71 road race pinto.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 23, 2016, 07:54:46 PM
Just a little update: finished installing the second spring and took it for a drive. It feels comparable to when the car was totally stock with a 2.0, only now the ride is comfortably firmer with slightly less body roll.

The bad news is that with both 2.3 springs under it, the front end sits a little too high. I'll try taking off another 1/2 coil sometime later. The main thing is that drivability improved.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: pinto_one on April 24, 2016, 02:24:47 PM
Last year they had a few sunbeam Tigers here , and for the pinto guys that think a 5.0 (or 260/289 ) is a tight fit into a pinto look at this ,  :o . love to have the wheels off this on on my pinto
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dga57 on April 24, 2016, 07:22:43 PM
for the pinto guys that think a 5.0 (or 260/289 ) is a tight fit into a pinto look at this ,  :o . 

Probably needed a shoehorn to slip that baby in there!!!

Dwayne :)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on April 25, 2016, 07:32:33 AM
That is a tight fit..
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 30, 2016, 09:29:43 PM
Small update: I spent all last weekend and most of today fabbing the 3" downpipe-back exhaust...and I'm only about 75% done with the mockup and tacking.  :P Snaking it around the rear end and shock without hitting anything has been a PITA.

Pintos truly were not designed to do any of the things we try to do with them.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 30, 2016, 11:45:22 PM
Yea, I've been living with a 2-1/4" exhaust for similar reasons. I just reused the T/C exhaust (including the CAT) after some gentle bending on the press. I pinched off the split to the second muffler (I believe duals were 87-88, manual only???) and finished with the 2-1/4"..., for now..., which was way back then..., and still is. The muffler (Dynomax) is under the rear seat and just tailpipe after that to the rear of the car.  But, yea, it seems close in places with 2-1/4", I'm trying to imagine 3."
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 01, 2016, 11:42:17 PM
There's no more than about 1/2" of clearance in any of the tightest places. I know now that 3" radius bends would have helped a lot.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/whydithavetobesnakes01_zpsmbl58uhd.jpg)

I got the whole mock-up done and ready to weld when it started raining. When I put everything away for the night, it stopped raining.  ::)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: pinto_one on May 03, 2016, 02:31:58 PM
Looking at the last photo I was wondering if later you were going to use the 8 inch rear end , it is a tighter fit in the front area with the wider removable housing ,
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 03, 2016, 11:19:29 PM
Yes I am; that was going through my head the whole time. Sounds like the adjustments are in order that I was trying to avoid.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on May 04, 2016, 01:01:54 PM
I know this sounds lame and lazy, but on the Tigers most everyone runs the exhaust under the rear axle. Amongst owners it is simply accepted as necessary.

http://www.tigersunited.com/techtips/PaulickExhaust/pt-PaulickExhaust2.asp
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 07, 2016, 09:01:26 PM
The exhaust is on hold for now pending parts and a change of layout.

In other news, a plan is materializing for modifications to my big turbo's turbine housing that ought to allow use of its internal wastegate and the stock E6 exhaust manifold. Twin-scroll turbos with a wastegate hole on only one scroll tend to have trouble controlling boost on gas engines. Some people have tried to remove the divider down to the wastegate hole and the results seem to be generally disappointing. My plan is to remove the entire divider, which is not practical with ordinary tools.  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsXKS8Nyu8Q
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 76hotrodpinto on May 08, 2016, 05:04:52 PM
I'm interested to hear how that works out. SCIENCE!
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 13, 2016, 09:15:29 PM
The week in review:

Saturday 5/7: Discouraged by how difficult and protracted an over-the-axle 3" exhaust was turning out, I decided to find a Thrush perf core glasspack and stick it in the tunnel somewhere with a pipe out the side like my Mustang. Spent most of those productive day hours driving around the Antelope Valley looking for a parts store or muffler shop that had one. My go-to shop, the only place that probably had one in a 50mi radius, was understandably closed on the weekend. The other 10 (seriously) stores/shops I checked either didn't stock anything above 2.5" or didn't know what a glasspack is. Defeated, I went home and ordered one online.

Sunday 5/8: Time and thought produced a realization that the muffler I already have might fit behind the transmission. It does! It's also dark outside already!

Monday 5/9: The plan is in motion and I get it all mounted under the car, but run out of daylight before running a pipe totally out the side. A turndown underneath pointed sideways will have to suffice for now. Remember the resonance problem I had before? It's majorly back, but earplugs knock it down to a tolerable level now.

Thursday 5/12: Glasspack came in. Decided to keep it in case I need it for something else. Also picked up some 2.25"x 24" tailpipe pieces to run out the side(because dual 2.25s have about the same flow area as a single 3"). Oval tubing is what I wanted, but it might as well be made of gold. I also looked at NASCAR "boom tubes," but they were all a bit....large.

Friday 5/13: I decided last-minute to take the Pinto to work. It went great until a nut holding one of the hangers on rattled loose (I had tightened it, I made sure) and the exhaust started dragging on the freeway at 70mph. I dove off and into a parking lot, threw a window shade down to keep from getting dirty, and managed to pull the assembly off with just an Allen wrench (the only tool I had), and continued on with an open downpipe as before and only a few minutes late. Not bad for Friday the 13th.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on May 14, 2016, 01:10:24 PM
I've gotten a lot of my 3" exhaust from guys who upgrade their diesels.  I only have it on one car, my Valiant.   Stock manifolds into 2" run to a 3" and then through a Flowmaster series 50 (supposedly quieter 3 chamber). The DRONING->>>>>> is a sonic weapon.  And it starts right at 1,900 RPM and drops off right at 2,600 RPM. Right in the normal driving range.  I'm convinced that it had nothing to do with what comes out the pipe, but rather what occurs within the pipe and muffler.  I temporarily put one of those Ricer mufflers on the end of the pipe, and choked it to it's tuneable limit.  It barely made any difference.

I know the automatic cars had a single exhaust after the CAT where as the manual car split to a dual.  I'd be curious to know how large it was??? I guess with your large turbo aspirations you need the larger size. My understanding is the turbo kills a lot of the velocity in the exhaust thus the large diameter compensates for that.   My single 2-1/4" is likely a deficit I'd like to change someday. I'm not seeking the high HP output some of you guys are, but I'd still like to maximize what I have in its stock form.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: oldkayaker on May 14, 2016, 08:14:43 PM
65ShelbyClone, the exhaust is looking good.  I like the idea of caring a window shade to use as a emergency work mat. 

Wittsend, a few links to resonator pipe design/use if you have the room for one.  No personal experience with them.
http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?topic=24005.msg148143#msg148143
http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/gm-engine-exhaust-performance-21/how-build-exhaust-resonator-tube-eliminate-drone-489463/
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=320550
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 14, 2016, 09:02:17 PM
My understanding is the turbo kills a lot of the velocity in the exhaust thus the large diameter compensates for that.   My single 2-1/4" is likely a deficit I'd like to change someday. I'm not seeking the high HP output some of you guys are, but I'd still like to maximize what I have in its stock form.

Turbos don't decrease the exhaust velocity; they just work better when restriction downstream of the turbine is kept to an absolute minimum.

Stock exhaust size for any 2.3T car was 2.25" as far as I know. In hindsight, 2.5" is probably as large as I would go for a sub-300hp street car. Pintos are unarguably the most spacious little cars from that era, but I can see that Ford got that space by taking it from every other part of the chassis.

In other news, I started toward moving the alternator to the driver's side. What I found out was:
1.) The upper Pinto alternator bracket hits the "late" EFI intake manifold flange and won't fit without modifying the bracket.
2.) Same thing for the marine alternator bracket I have, although not as bad.
3.) The alternator is probably going to hit the battery anyway. Remember that billet tray I made to put it on the driver's side of the engine bay? Yeah, probably coming out.

The cooling system(or lack thereof) is also floating higher on the to-do list. My drive home yesterday saw coolant temps struggling to dip below 215°F when outside temps were only in the upper 80s. The electric pusher fan does practically nothing unless the car is stopped.

65ShelbyClone, the exhaust is looking good.  I like the idea of caring a window shade to use as a emergency work mat.

Thanks. That's not the primary reason I carry a window shade,  ;) but I was wingin' it at the time. Usually I just carry a small tarp. (Very) creative solutions are something I have had to learn for my job and it bled over.  ;D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on May 15, 2016, 03:27:28 PM
I have my alternator on the drivers side.  I made the bracket out of a old bed rail angle iron.  The contact wrap on the water pump pulley is minimal, but it has never been a problem. Also somewhat tight at the battery, but enough clearance.  Knowing the fabricator you are I'm sure you will produce something nice.  Here are a few pics of the fitment.

Note the notching for the timing belt cover, and, because of a tab on the alternator, notching too. That could have been cut off, but if I ever needed to replace it in traveling I wanted it to be replaceable without alteration. I forgot what I used as an anchor on the other end, but it was some factory 2.3 bracket. See lower edge of last picture.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 20, 2016, 09:15:03 PM
Is that alternator smaller than a regular one? It looks like it. I had a brainwave today that maybe a compact alternator would work. I have a 3G now and it's pretty big.

I also have a high mount bracket like yours, but am a bit more restricted by plans to run a forward-facing intake and FMIC.

Hear that funky noise?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/Blooie_pipe_01_zpsuww5jakv.jpg)

And there's this in the feasibility study...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IMG_0960_zpsrtkl9csu.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on May 20, 2016, 09:46:35 PM
Whatever the stock alternator that came on a '88 T/C is what it is.  The mount on the head is not stock, but very common on 2.3 engines. The self serve yards are full of the import mini alternators.  They seem to cram nicely into tight spaces.  I've included a few pics of one I have on my Tiger. The original generator hung out wide and high. So much so the factory indented the inner fender for it. The pivot point is on the head and the front braces at the water pump with a second, bottom (unseen) bracket off the same bolt being slotted for adjustment.

That turbo should create a nice vacuum in front of the Pinto so as to draw the car quickly forward!  ;D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: bbobcat75 on June 02, 2016, 02:41:06 PM
man that turbo look sweet!!!
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on June 03, 2016, 02:58:36 PM
Grabbed a couple cheap rebuilt oval-port 2.3 heads and another E6 turbo manifold this week, all destined for porting.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/Logs_amp_found_zpszfy9les8.jpg)

I also have some Ferrea big valves coming in.

And.....oh no, what have I done?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/not_playing_with_a_wholeset_zpsvybk0kym.jpg)

I needed another turbo like I need a hole in my head, but it was fairly cheap and won't be as difficult to fit in the Pinto as the Borg Warner in my previous posts. This is a Holset HY35W-A with a 56mm compressor and 9cm hot housing that make it good for a spiced-up 2.3T. Unfortunately the bearings and compressor wheel are junk so I'm looking into getting it rebuilt and upgraded to HE351 (60mm) spec. Some people with other twin-cam 16v cars have made upwards of 600bhp on the HE351, but it will work at 250hp-300hp (my initial target) just fine as well.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 82expghost on June 04, 2016, 12:44:34 AM
Hy35g and you have the same turbo watercooled

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on June 04, 2016, 03:47:13 PM
That's good to know. It looks like the "G" is Holset-ese for a natural gas application. One thing I have noticed about Holsets transplanted onto high-EGT gas engines is that they seem to suffer from the heat a bit. Maybe not enough to fail, but possibly enough to shorten their life.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on June 11, 2016, 03:32:42 PM
After a lot of whittling on a lathe, a 6" round of Delrin became a 4.375" round of Delrin. It was then given to a CNC mill with a toothy beak that did this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/cheap_as_chips_zpsngrrzauz.jpg)

to get here:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/loads_of_funnel_zps1w6jfsem.jpg)

So this could be done:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/no_elbow_grease_just_work_zps8fljg0fi.jpg)

To achieve this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/sneaky_snaked_zpsco4n8t2n.jpg)

Now the air filter sits below the hood.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 02, 2016, 02:56:32 PM
I think I might have a problem. Really.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/HE341_01_zps4ynqhjso.jpg)

This time it's an HE341. The only difference between it an an HE351 is the 56mm compressor and physically smaller housing. This one has a stuck wastegate flapper, but I think the HY35 housing will fit on it.

Speaking of the HY35, it's the reason I have an HE341 now. The HY35's shaft journals are still in spec and they feel smooth, but there is evidence of friction-related heat. Also to my dismay was finding that the turbine had been hitting the housing as well. The turbine wheel can probably be balanced and used, but the HE341 cartridge seems to have life left. I'll know more when the housings come off. Until then, here's some hurt HY35:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/that_burning_sensation_zpsnei0zifz.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/shaft_rubbin_zps3yty6ms1.jpg)

Quote
I also have some Ferrea big valves coming in.

And they're purdy.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IE_01_zpswveeaxfw.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on July 02, 2016, 03:38:43 PM
I always find you posts to be engaging.  Probably because you dare to go where I fear to tread!

Two questions:

1. Are any turbo wheels clocked with a key?  I loosened up my intake wheel to clean behind it, got it loose and realized it spun free on the shaft. As best I could I immediately rotated it back to the approximate area it was and then marked the wheels.  I always wondered about the balance but have been thankful that "close enough" indexing has not displayed any problems - yet. It has been about 2,000 miles without issue. Are they balanced independently and it doesn't matter. The turbo is an '88 IHI.

2. How are the valves swirl polished. I have a car guy/machinist friend and even he wondered.

OK, a third question:

3. Static compression is lowered to compensate for the added volume on a turbo motor such as the case in the T/C engine.  It would seem that much like one measures dynamic compression as it relates to the cam, similar aspects would seem to apply to larger turbos. It would seem that as the turbo got larger and the PSI increased you reach a peak cylinder pressure that you should not exceed. Yet when I hear of Indy type cars with boost over 40 PSI it makes me wonder what (static) compression ratio those cars run???
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 02, 2016, 11:48:39 PM
I don't know why, but I don't always get reply notifications on this thread even though I have it set to instant email.  ???

Haven't done anything to the car since last; just picked up a few more tchotchkes like a new steering rack (in transit) and an amazingly cheap Chinese piston-type blow off valve that is green like my ride  8) . The plan is to replace the heavy brass piston with one machined from Delrin for faster response.

I also polished the burnt bearing journals on the turbine shaft above. It looks like new, but turns out the shaft is bent out of spec making it a pretty paperweight.

1. Are any turbo wheels clocked with a key?

Not any I've ever heard of. A key would cause balance and strength issues. Freedom of rotation also allows for balancing without grinding on anything; sometimes just rotating the compressor is enough to bring the assembly into spec.

Holset rebuild manuals instruct to permanently mark the wheel and shaft so they can be aligned on reassembly.

Quote
2. How are the valves swirl polished. I have a car guy/machinist friend and even he wondered.

I actually don't know how, but the most plausible reasons why seem to be manufacturing and marketing. Titanium valves are never swirl polished and many modern stainless race valves aren't either.

Quote
OK, a third question:

3. Static compression is lowered to compensate for the added volume on a turbo motor such as the case in the T/C engine.  It would seem that much like one measures dynamic compression as it relates to the cam, similar aspects would seem to apply to larger turbos. It would seem that as the turbo got larger and the PSI increased you reach a peak cylinder pressure that you should not exceed. Yet when I hear of Indy type cars with boost over 40 PSI it makes me wonder what (static) compression ratio those cars run???

You're talking about effective compression ratio.

Effective compression takes intake charge density into account. If you stuff two volumes of air into one volume of space, that's a 2:1 compression ratio. Atmospheric pressure is about 14.7psi absolute. 14.7psi of boost on top of that means that two volumes of air are in the cylinder before the piston starts to compress anything. With an 8:1 compression ratio like a 2.3T has, you get 2 x 8 = 16:1 effective compression. That's pretty high for pump gas already and 20:1 is nearing the ragged edge for a 2.3T, but it's nowhere near what methanol can tolerate. That's what Indy engines used to use. Now they use E85 which isn't as forgiving, but is still a lot nicer in that regard than pump gas.

Turbo F1 cars reached as much as 80psi of boost in the 1986 season. The BMWs had 7.5:1 static compression, so ~41.3:1 effective... :o
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 07, 2016, 11:53:43 PM
I made a lightweight Delrin replacement for the brass piston in the Chinese $18.50 blow off valve mentioned previously. The Holset turbo I plan on using initially is known for not being the most tolerant of surge or slow blow off valves, so I wanted this one to open as fast as possible. The brass piston is amazingly heavy.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/playing_brass_zpsue9wjdro.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/the-hole-shebang_zpsbssihzdr.jpg)

The sealing lip heights aren't the same because it was a non-critical dimension. The spring pocket to sealing edge dims are the same and I had to open up the piston-bore clearance to allow for Delrin's higher expansion rate, so I left the slight extra length.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/piston-in-the-wind2_zpsa3oco3wx.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/valvie02_zpssf4pq29k.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 09, 2016, 09:29:49 PM
Quick question for anyone watching: will the drum brakes from a 6.75" rear fit on a Mustang II 8"?

No problem if they don't; I have just read about the MII brakes being a little wider and affecting the brake bias. If I can avoid playing with proportioning valves and brakes cylinders, so much the better.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on September 09, 2016, 11:44:13 PM
74/80 brake drums are the same as Mustang II. 71/73 Pinto drums are narrow when compared to the 74/80 Pintos drums.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: oldkayaker on September 10, 2016, 04:52:21 AM
The hubs on the 71/73 cars are smaller than the 74/80 Pinto's and Mustang II's.  So your 72 drums will not fit over the larger Mustang II hub with out modification.  From vague recall, the wagons and 73 and later sedans had the wider drums with some cooling fins plus a little larger hydraulic brake wheel cylinder, so you will get a little more rear bias.  I put a Mustang II 8" with brakes in my 71 and did not notice the different brake bias but I am not good at sensing such things.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 10, 2016, 12:10:33 PM
Thanks for the info.  :)

From what I could find, it looks like the 7/8" wheel cylinders were used for all models while the shoes are wider for MIIs and Pinto wagons.  ??? In addition to stock, I also got some 13/16" wheel cylinders (1/16" smaller) to try if the rear bias is too much.

As long as the backing plates interchange, I'll be all set. The center hole is no problem; I can either open up the drum, turn-down the hub pilot on the axles, use the brakes off of the '77 Pinto parts car, or use the brakes that came with the 8". It's good to have options.  8)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 10, 2016, 10:36:12 PM
I can confirm that the 6.75" 73 wagon rear drums do not fit a 8".  As mentioned the center hole in the drum is too small.  Not sure about the backing plates but I recall something was different between the Mustang II and the Pinto - might have had to do with the E brake cable???  I'd turn the drum as the later/larger holed drums are probably easier to find. Turning the axle will force the use of replacement drums with smaller holes.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: oldkayaker on September 11, 2016, 07:07:01 AM
That wheel cylinder size did not seem right so I check Rock Auto (handy site).  The 72 sedan rear wheel cylinder was 23/32" while the wagon, 74/80 Pinto, and Mustang II used a 7/8" (look at the cylinder rebuild kits for sizes).  Note Rock Auto is doing a "wholesaler closeout" on the 23/32" stuff so replacement parts will be harder to get in the future.  That 23/32" cylinder was a pain to rebuild too, my 3-stone hone would not fit inside it.  Using the torques listed in the Ford manuals, the bolts used to connect the cylinder to the backing plate are smaller for the 23/32" than the 7/8" cylinder.  So some accommodation may be needed if swapping cylinder sizes without swapping backing plates.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 17, 2016, 09:15:15 PM
It looks like you're right and I ordered the "wrong" parts from Rock. That said, some quick sleuthing suggests that the master cylinders were the same diameter across all years, so I'm just not going to sweat it. The MII rear end is getting MII brakes. 8)

I'm doing dual 2.25" tips out the side to finish off the exhaust. You all may remember from eons ago that I put the muffler under the middle of the car and kinda stopped there. It's not call-the-cops loud anymore, but interior resonance is bad. Really bad. That resonance is gone when piped all the way out the side.

Poll: should I do staggered straight-cut pipes or slash-cut them to align with the body?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/pipedreams03_zps1yobytgw.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/pipedreams02_zps0mdbglck.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/pipedreams01_zpscks86cil.jpg)

In other news, I pulled the 2.3 out of my '77 parts car.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/anchors_away01_zpsrlcc4jxh.jpg)

Only to find this under the #3 exhaust port:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/crack_pipe01_zpsecsrxybw.jpg)

 >:(

Incidentally, I had to pull the clutch for the engine stand to fit on the block. Check the date on that disc:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/bicentennial_clutch40_zpsxxa5kma5.jpg)

That's "SEP 17 1976", 40 years ago to the day.  :o
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 17, 2016, 09:33:21 PM
Oops! Forgot that I did some milling on an E6 manifold a few weeks ago. It was minor stuff and I didn't want to Twitterize this thread.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/porting_chance00_zpsdx8nxdbf.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/porting_chance02_zpstpuxkqiq.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/porting_chance01_zpsrhivxtrq.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/plane_jane01_zps2zbcdeqx.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/heel_drag01_zps8pmzehov.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 26, 2016, 09:32:54 PM
This was from Labor Day weekend. I call it my boomstick.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/boomstick01_zpsgtvp0mcv.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/boomstick03_zpsaaecvnsl.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/boomstick02_zpsxzcqm5ef.jpg)

The video was impromptu and not very good, so I'll try for better shots later, maybe this weekend.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on September 27, 2016, 07:41:07 AM
I like that "boomstick". :D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 30, 2016, 12:00:32 AM
For now, these are the "meh" videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVl7DuitJko&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P-tuWEZFVU&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on September 30, 2016, 07:31:55 AM
Sounds pretty good..
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 30, 2016, 11:23:58 AM
The "Broomstick." Sweeping the edge of the highway - one mile at a time. :-)

BTW, I'm thinking the "aligned to the body" look would be best with a slight projection beyond the rocker.  Might even paint the last 1/4" or so silver. But it is your car so do as you like.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 01, 2016, 12:43:25 AM
Scraping the edge of the highway is more like it. New rear shocks may be in order....unles s Los Angeles County decides to start using road funds to fix the roads.  ::)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 05, 2016, 01:24:32 PM
I wanted to post something by October 30th to make it an even month, but have been down with a knarly cold for the last week...my first in several years.  :o Getting better though, so on with the show.

The upper intake is slowly coming together. A die grinder and carbide burr were used to radius the flange holes.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/rad-ius_01_zps9tiytqo6.jpg)

Which produced slivers galore. I was picking them out of my hands for DAYS.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/porcu-pain_01_zpsjnopkhsl.jpg)

I should have/would have started with aluminum, but the flange was made before I had a TIG welder.

At least now there's this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/tubular_01_zpsigbbumb5.jpg)

There is also a throttle body flange ready for the upper intake now. I opted to use a standard Ford 5.0 pattern for future convenience. The installed TB will be a more compact 65mm one from a 4.6L Mustang which necessitates an adapter plate. Billet again.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/nice-body_01_zpsq9759ozq.jpg)

If anyone is wondering why I didn't just put both patterns in the steel flange, it's because the 4.6L bolt circle intersects the tubing that the flange will get welded to. I could have taken measures to seal them, but this flange is more versatile and can be used on any old 5.0 HO upper intake.

Turns out that the green blow off valve is a Taiwanese copy of a '90s-era Turbosmart Type II. They are still going for only $16 apiece otd, so I bought two more, one silver and another green. Might get a few other colors later... ;D

The original green one has been modified extensively. The spring force was really high even with the adjuster backed off all the way. Replacement springs in other rates are hard to find and cost prohibitive, so I improvised by making a billet top hat that increases the installed height and thus, lowers the installed force. It will take some fine tuning to get it right for the peak vacuum my engine makes, but at least now that adjustment is possible.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/hats-off_01_zps1t4gfdhi.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/sprung_01_zpswygld8k8.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/hats-on_01_zpsi90yzbzm.jpg)


The outlet hols have also been opened up into large slots for less restriction. I might make the ends more rectangular so there isn't an ugly silver/green border on the cuts.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/window-to-the-flow_01_zpsjs85xk33.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on December 03, 2016, 11:11:03 PM
Small update...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/say_ahh_01_zps8ptkjgqn.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/back-in-flat_zpses1fgaka.jpg)

This is the handle of a telescoping magnet used to check hood clearance over the TB inlet. It's amazing that the huge flange behind it fits.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/easy-squeezy_zps0qznjgke.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/elbow-grease-01_zpshkcep3zs.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/elbo-go-stick_zps0qnngg1n.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/silicone-elbow-augmentation_zpspsnjhdwi.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on December 05, 2016, 12:34:50 PM

"It's amazing that the huge flange behind it fits."

I'd say so. With the shorter stock set up I had to file the factory flange to the edge of the bolt holes for clearance (see pic). And in my case that was near the higher center of the hood. In your case you have the throttle body going offset from the engine center and going forward. Both those directions have hood slope that diminish clearance. Glad you found so much clearance. I can't imaging you have the engine any lower than mine. With the stock starter it hits the steering rack hold down bolt with the slightest throttle application.


So, I've searched Pick Your Part for years for a decent white hood (want to keep the original color and patina). I've wanted one as a replacement since I cut the air inlet for the factory intercooler.  Never found one. And yet here you are with a green car and - a white hood. Why does it always work out that way???


Glad to see the project moving forward even if slowly. Too often they die into obscurity.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on December 05, 2016, 08:50:43 PM
Glad you found so much clearance. I can't imaging you have the engine any lower than mine. With the stock starter it hits the steering rack hold down bolt with the slightest throttle application.


"So much" clearance...th at's funny.  ;) There's still hardly any clearance anywhere. I had to cheat the radius on the new upper intake so the flange wouldn't hit the hood. It may still require a torque strap to keep the engine from hitting under acceleration.

Another obstacle is finding room for a front-mount intercooler. The Spearco one I got long ago is going to be tough to fit, so it's looking like a modified TurboCoupe IC might fit on the passenger side without tearing out the stock hood latch and grille support.

Quote
So, I've searched Pick Your Part for years for a decent white hood (want to keep the original color and patina). I've wanted one as a replacement since I cut the air inlet for the factory intercooler.  Never found one. And yet here you are with a green car and - a white hood. Why does it always work out that way???


Funny you mention that. I still have the original green hood. I got the white one on a parts car and planned to use hood pins and cut it for a bubble/cowl/scoop to clear the intake, but decided not to(it was hard to find!). It's for a '77 anyway and doesn't have the right latch for my '72 hence the hood pins.

Quote
Glad to see the project moving forward even if slowly. Too often they die into obscurity.

Thanks. I figure I'll post updates as long as the car is "project" status which appears to be indefinitely at this rate.  :o


Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: robertwwithee on December 08, 2016, 12:03:54 PM
I noticed right off as early hoods have ford on the drivers side corner and not in middle.  I bet hardly anybody would pick that out at a car show though. 

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on December 31, 2016, 10:17:42 PM
The second update in a single month and it's the last one of the year.

Decided to postpone fitting an intercooler in lieu of getting the car running.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/pie_slices_01_zpsdmjxvkfw.jpg)

The blow off valve is going to fit between the valve cover and intake.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/leg_bone_zpsxow2dmbd.jpg)

The intake is fully welded now. Part of it even looks like I can pretend to weld.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/tig_turds_zpslwxqjjyu.jpg)

I was toying with the idea of a front-mounted Turbo Coupe IC. Might actually get another and fit one on each side of the hood latch bracket...with different tanks of course.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/TC_test_fit_zpsqjdmbnah.jpg)

Ran out yesterday an bought another used intercooler because it was local and cheap.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/flea-o-trio_zps1qnecyzd.jpg)

It would require a shoehorn and cussing to fit in the Pinto though. It's possible without cutting the car, but just barely and I'm not sure I'll go to the trouble.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/too_legit_to_fit_zpsyoxhckja.jpg)

Hopefully it will be buttoned up and running tomorrow. Lots of welding to do on those pie cut bends...
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on January 07, 2017, 11:12:35 PM
Didn't get finished last week partly because of not having the right selection of hoses for plumbing the new vacuum and breather lines. Got some of that and then decided I'd rather not remove the TPS sensor from the original Throttle body in case I need to put the intake back on for whatever reason. Got another '86 TPS sensor in today and slotted the holes for adjustment.

Then I discovered that the 4.6L throttle body I've built all this around had a wider TPS bolt spacing than the '86.  >:(

The key word is "had." I thought I was dead in the water for another week or two, but fortunately there was enough space to move the bolt holes with some heavy thread inserts. Barely.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/new_thread_posting_zpsobjiexmm.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/mean_amp_Keen_zpspc6ugmic.jpg)

Also got some goodies I have to show off.  ;D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/The_one_the_original_zpsct3i2exl.jpg)

Now I can more safely build and use a longer shift arm as the Pro 5.0 Power Tower has adjustable stops. Years ago I had an '89 Mustang GT and put a similar B&M shifter on it. IMO, it's one of the best ways to improve the driving experience of a T5. Even the guy I sold the car to was impressed.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/oops-i-squirted-again_zpsj3bbxyvz.jpg)

Not obvious from the picture is that those are 95lb injectors. They'll easily supply about 500bhp on gas. Figured this way I only had to buy them once.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on January 28, 2017, 11:00:50 PM
As of 5:48pm PST, it's back and running with the redone intake and charge plumbing. Not sure I like the abrupt throttle response of the non-progressive 65mm TB, but I was wearing boots and the cable needs some adjustment, so maybe it can be fine-tuned.

The blow off valve is a little slow to respond at very low boost and slow roll-offs even with my efforts to reduce the spring force, but it seems to be alright at moderate boost and higher. It's also surprisingly loud.  :o  Not what I was after, but that's OK because it will add to the sleeper surprise factor.  8)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IMG_25142_zpsqggkz3dy.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/IMG_25162_zpsoghdp7n4.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 74 PintoWagon on January 29, 2017, 06:15:29 AM
Looks great.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: suttertim on February 20, 2017, 02:57:18 PM
You have done a great job on this build and an even better job documenting it! I have an 88 donor and a 73 wagon that I hope to breed in the future. I will definitely be looking back at this thread throughout the pain-staking process. I'm still gathering the basic mechanical parts needed at this point. Do you know anyone that may have 2.3 frame mounts or an oil pan?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on February 21, 2017, 11:08:31 AM
I must agree. 65SC has done a great job of documenting and keeping us up to date on his project. Being this car was only sold about 8 miles from me I had at one time contemplated getting myself a second Pinto. I never did get over there to see it, but because of the "closeness" (shall we say) of my having considering this very car I was pleasantly surprised to see what became of it.

Not to steal any of 65SC's thunder, I thought I'd mention that I also did a '73 wagon with a '88 donor TC.  I have a two part write up about it (sorry no pictures). The link to the second part is at the end of the first part. Hope you can find something helpful. http://www.fordpinto.com/general-pinto-talk/so-you-want-to-build-a-turbo-pinto-part-1/msg76893/#msg76893  For reference 65SC's project is more advanced than mine. I kept everything basically stock in the switch over.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: suttertim on February 21, 2017, 06:46:24 PM
Excellent project summary Tom! I have read it many times over the past couple years because I have a 73 wagon and an 88 SC up here in Norcal. I parked them close together hoping that they would crossbreed naturally but no luck so far. LOL! I have recently read 65SC detailed build thread as well and the two compliment each other nicely. He has done a great job of documenting the build step by step! I'm still collecting a few more parts before I begin the long process of making these cars one and run again.
Thank you both for your time and effort to help the rest of us out with our projects!
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on February 21, 2017, 07:30:42 PM
All the best to you.  I believe (if I'm correct) both 65SC and I had our engines in/out seven times before we would commit to welding in the motor mounts!  The '88 wire harness is a mess.  I spent days sorting out what I didn't need and still had about 20 "I'm not sure" wires.  I think he runs a different control system and maybe wired it himself???  His build is a good one to follow. He is very straightforwar d and will state what did and didn't work.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: suttertim on February 21, 2017, 07:52:09 PM
I'm really leaning towards one of the premade harnesses to simplify the process. I plan to contact the mfr. before the purchase. Big Timmay posted their contact info on a thread. They may be able to customize a harness just for my application even further.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on February 25, 2017, 02:32:39 PM
I thought I would pop in since there's been some activity.

Not a lot to report on the project. It's been a very rough month for me and a lot of people I know. The Pinto has been mostly neglected (but not forgotten!).

After I got everything back together and some shakedown runs done, it felt like it nosed-over more on the top end. It's always smelled rich, but it seemed worse, so I checked the fuel pressure and it's about 10psi too high according to the rail gauge. The regulator seems to be working, just at 10psi above correct. I'm going to try a different gauge first, then see whether the return line is causing a restriction. If it is, I have a coil of 3/8" brake line and -6 AN fittings that will get strung as a new feed line while the current 5/16 one will become the new larger return leg.

You have done a great job on this build and an even better job documenting it! I have an 88 donor and a 73 wagon that I hope to breed in the future. I will definitely be looking back at this thread throughout the pain-staking process. I'm still gathering the basic mechanical parts needed at this point. Do you know anyone that may have 2.3 frame mounts or an oil pan?

Thanks!

The 2.3 mounts and oil pan were probably the most difficult parts for me to find. The pans pop up on fleaBait once in a while and you might find the mounts on the classifieds here. I was preparing to build some frame mounts and use the stock 'Bird engine brackets with universal isolators when a member here offered a whole Pinto set for trade.

I stumbled upon the C-Line seven-quart pan on my engine. Now that I have it for reference and a nice TIG welder, I might try making my own from the rear-sump Thunderbird pan. That's actually what C-Line did to begin with.

I must agree. 65SC has done a great job of documenting and keeping us up to date on his project. Being this car was only sold about 8 miles from me I had at one time contemplated getting myself a second Pinto. I never did get over there to see it, but because of the "closeness" (shall we say) of my having considering this very car I was pleasantly surprised to see what became of it.

Not to steal any of 65SC's thunder, I thought I'd mention that I also did a '73 wagon with a '88 donor TC.  I have a two part write up about it (sorry no pictures). The link to the second part is at the end of the first part. Hope you can find something helpful. http://www.fordpinto.com/general-pinto-talk/so-you-want-to-build-a-turbo-pinto-part-1/msg76893/#msg76893  For reference 65SC's project is more advanced than mine. I kept everything basically stock in the switch over.

Thanks! Post away; it helps record and archive all that hard-learned information.

All the best to you.  I believe (if I'm correct) both 65SC and I had our engines in/out seven times before we would commit to welding in the motor mounts!  The '88 wire harness is a mess.  I spent days sorting out what I didn't need and still had about 20 "I'm not sure" wires.  I think he runs a different control system and maybe wired it himself???  His build is a good one to follow. He is very straightforwar d and will state what did and didn't work.

I think the engine came out closer to a dozen times. Yeah, the EFI is a MegaSquirt-II  and the harness was completely disassembled, shortened, and reassembled for it. My '86 harness wasn't as integrated as an '87-88 harness, but the result still wasn't really worth the effort IMO. It only served the purpose of reducing cost. Next time I'll probably shell out on new parts and wire it like a rally car or trophy truck with threaded metal connectors. At the very least I plan to use them for bulkheads going through the firewall.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: hotrodln on April 06, 2017, 08:29:52 PM
Hey did you get your IC figured out yet? I'm going to be using an old one from a volvo turbo wagon. it's BIG like a radiator, but the pipes come out on either side of the radiator. I'll be working on installing mine this weekend. Also I saw you were looking for an early hood ( maybe you found one) I have a nice one that i bought that didn't fit my 74....oh well. I'm in NY and your in CA.. keep us posted. Pat
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 06, 2017, 11:22:34 PM
I haven't really done anything to the Pinto except drive it occasionally. Been chasing a noise in my truck's differential that I think is a carrier bearing. :(
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 30, 2017, 12:19:55 AM
And it was a carrier bearing. A junkyard carrier + a Sunday afternoon = my daily transportation is fixed, so back to the toys.

I got a flex fan in yesterday and started trying to fit it this afternoon. The radiator had to come out in order to remove the water pump pulley bolts. Fan went on, then the radiator (barely) went back in for a test fit. As expected, the blades hit the upper radiator hose.

Did I mention it's only a 13" fan?

Anyway, I have a stock 2.3 fan spacer that will be faced-off to about 1/2" thickness and hopefully that will buy enough clearance for the hose without getting the fan and bolts too close to the radiator.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 30, 2017, 02:34:13 PM
If you can even fit a fan in there you are doing better than I did.  I guess that is one of the advantages of using the stock intercooler (or is it really an interheater?).  That being I got to use a front mount electric fan.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 05, 2017, 10:41:37 PM
I didn't have a '73 steering rack to fight with, fortunately.

I found a generic fan spacer that dates back to my high school days and first car, a 1965 Mustang. At 1" it was too long, so:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/space-case_zpsa4dxqi98.jpg)

And standard bolts were a bit tall, so:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/smoke_em_if_you_got_em_zpsgzklnihr.jpg)

...which bought about 0.050" of space
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/get-yer-ears-lowered_zpsuncvjijf.jpg)

Resulting in:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/space-cadet_zpsrvxrlq5k.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/mybiggestfaniosntthatbig_zps1bdfcqqt.jpg)

Yeah, it's as close as it looks.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/look_at_all_that_space_zpsvsxpkcjs.jpg)

This all happened last weekend. I took it for a drive and the cooling is much better in moderate weather, but it still climbs steadily on hills. It was a stop-gap; the radiator is practically falling apart with numerous sections of the fins detaching from the tubes. I think I saw a date stamp of 1984 when it was out.

With that, I'm shopping for an aluminum replacement that won't mean rebuilding the car to fit it. An early Mustang smallblock units seems likely, although it will require different hoses for the larger connections and probably trimming the lower radiator support for a larger core.

----------------------

In other news, I'm also looking at an eBay cheap turbo for the exhaust housing to see if it's feasible to machine a housing to fit the Borg Warner S256 that has been languishing in storage for...years now?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Reeves1 on May 06, 2017, 05:59:52 AM
Why not get that one re-cored ?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 06, 2017, 12:47:56 PM
I considered it with the scarcity of 2.0 radiators in mind, but everything I found indicates that a recore will likely cost several times what a new aluminum radiator will. Moving the top inlet and using a flex hose might provide some added fan clearance too. I'd go with a brass 2.3 radiator, but don't really want to cut up the whole support and there's not a lot of space for a wider one anyway.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on May 06, 2017, 06:09:55 PM
The older Pinto's have a 17" radiator. The later ones have either a 17" - with side extender plate or a 20" radiator. On my '73 I cut the mount and shifted it over 3" overlapping the metal to maintain strength.  It has worked quite well. Otherwise everything fit as normal. Well, I did move the horn, but that is a minor thing.

 And..., I might have moved the windshield washer tank too (can't remember where it was originally).  I opted to put the TC tank under the drivers fender like the factory did on the '88 T/C. Hopefully the picture tell the story.  Of course I did all that..., and even the cruise control and nearly nine years later is it all completed and functional? Of course not.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 06, 2017, 07:21:55 PM
I haven't ruled-out what you did, but I'm also trying to plan for plumbing a front-mount intercooler and somewhere to route the charge tube to the throttle body. My current idea is to run it through the radiator support between the radiator and battery, so that's why I'm reluctant to go with a wider radiator.

Then a little voice inside tells me "originality is long gone; stop being fussy and just start cutting and welding to make it fit." ::)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 14, 2017, 02:31:35 PM
Installed the Pro 5.0 shifter:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/shifty01_zpsbcgbrucx.jpg)

No space for bolts with the thicker flange, so
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/swiss_cheese01_zpslq2d0cji.jpg)

The throw is so short that it will take some getting used to.

And shaved the TB flange some more for hood clearance. I think now there's an impressive 1/8".
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/unlevel-headed_zpsllqcoqxg.jpg)

It was mild yesterday, but the flex fan does seems to be working better than the little electric pusher from before. The next 100° day will really test it.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on May 15, 2017, 11:52:02 AM
"And shaved the TB flange some more for hood clearance. I think now there's an impressive 1/8"."

In reference to the associated picture above, Yes, "been there done that." Being I did mine with a manual mill (aka a hand file) it tapers in many directions. I'd post an image but given the latest cyber attack I'm on my Linux computer and no pictures there.

 As you and I have previously noted we had our engines in/out over half a dozen times before committing to welding the mounts. If one is committed to not cutting the hood I don't think most have any idea how "feeler gauge" close you need to get the oil pan to the rack and still wind up with similar clearances between the throttle body/upper intake and the hood.

Do you have a shroud on the fan?  From what I've studied they help a lot to improve airflow through a radiator. In my Tiger world it is a big issue.  They even block the venting on the sides of the radiator (horn openings) because they found at idle that the hot air recirculates.  Another thing they do is put and air dam skirt under the front valance. It helps to generate a negative pressure on the underside of the engine compartment and draw the hot it out.  They just use that 6" black garden edging with the rounded top. The rounded part is slit and slid over the front sway bar. Then little oval openings are cut right under the round part to pass hose clamps through to secure the air dam.  The nice thing is it is cheap, cuts easily (trim as needed) and bends when it hits a parking bumper. Not sure how that works on a Pinto but I thought  I'd mention it.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Reeves1 on May 17, 2017, 06:55:18 AM
Quote
next 100° day will really test it

LOL !

Going to be 2 degrees above zero tonight  ;D
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on June 06, 2017, 07:22:02 PM
LOL. It was 80°F in my office today and probably only 10° more than that outside. Says more about my employer's (lack of) A/C than the weather though.

Over the last few weekends I've been 1.) out of town, 2.) sitting in front of the cooler, or 3.) picking away at the Pinto's tune. I was using a throwaway laptop from work to tune with, but it was struggling with only 2 gig of RAM, so I installed a lighter OS...without backing-up a handful of good data logs I wanted to review. :o Not a big loss, but still.

Fortunately they helped get the acceleration enrichment improved quite a bit before that happened.

The headliner has also started falling to pieces.  ???

"And shaved the TB flange some more for hood clearance. I think now there's an impressive 1/8"."

In reference to the associated picture above, Yes, "been there done that." Being I did mine with a manual mill (aka a hand file) it tapers in many directions. I'd post an image but given the latest cyber attack I'm on my Linux computer and no pictures there.

Well, I thought it was 1/8" and it may be, but it's still rubbing on the hood. Oh well, maybe a cowl or something is going to happen after all.

Quote
.Do you have a shroud on the fan?  From what I've studied they help a lot to improve airflow through a radiator. In my Tiger world it is a big issue.  They even block the venting on the sides of the radiator (horn openings) because they found at idle that the hot air recirculates.  Another thing they do is put and air dam skirt under the front valance. It helps to generate a negative pressure on the underside of the engine compartment and draw the hot it out.  They just use that 6" black garden edging with the rounded top. The rounded part is slit and slid over the front sway bar. Then little oval openings are cut right under the round part to pass hose clamps through to secure the air dam.  The nice thing is it is cheap, cuts easily (trim as needed) and bends when it hits a parking bumper. Not sure how that works on a Pinto but I thought  I'd mention it.

Shrouds help a lot in my experience, but I don't have room for one! I will probably end up with an aluminum radiator for an early Mustang with the inlet & outlet on the passenger side. The top hose will get rerouted and clear some space around the fan.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Srt on June 19, 2017, 07:54:40 PM
talking a long time ago here but; when I had my turbo 71 I had my cousin hand build me a 3" core radiator with hand built tanks to fit in the stock location .

I don't think it EVER went over 180 degrees.

It was a god send that he was in the radiator business.  it only cost $100 and a burger & fries.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 12, 2017, 09:31:45 PM
Quote from: fordpinto.com
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 30 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

LOL.

Some things have been going on, but I won't have pictures up until I get new photo hosting that isn't Photobucket.

Updates:

1.) The radiator is effectively in pending some bolt tightening and fan wiring and functioning. The only way to fit a puller fan was to put two small Chinese 7" fans on either side of the crank and water pump pulleys. Hopefully the fan controller can cope in the long term. In case that wasn't enough,  I also got a spare 10" that can be put on the front as a pusher if needed. After running the car a bit tonight, it looks like it's probably needed.  ???

2.) I also got a 3" diameter, 3" radius steel doughnut in preparation for another attempt to get exhaust over the axle.

3.) I sold the 13" Minilites to make room/money for larger wheels....some thing that will fit over a brake upgrade.

4.) Much intensive research has been done on the topic of brake upgrades. Turns out that big 11" Pinto/MII and Granada rotors are quite abundant in any bolt pattern you want as long as it's five-lug. 11" MII rotors with the stock bolt pattern are completely nonexistent. Drill-your-own rotors are the same. Remember when I tried very hard to get an MII rear end because it had a stock 4x4.25" wheel pattern? Yeah, not working so good now.

I don't want to buy wheels until I figure out the brakes, I don't want to install the rear end until I figure out the brakes, and I don't want to build over-the-axle exhaust until an 8" gets installed. Oi!

At least the cooling system appears to be better than it was. That was a big hurdle.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on August 13, 2017, 10:23:07 AM
Glad to see you back! Please keep up the great pictures. They help all Pinto gear heads, not just turbo builders.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 26, 2017, 09:06:57 PM
I don't want to buy wheels until I figure out the brakes,

(http://i.imgur.com/diH0uwi.jpg)

Even though I don't think it ought to be, a five-lug conversion looks to be the least difficult way to facilitate a brake upgrade and ensure future parts availability. Therefore, WHEELS!

(http://i.imgur.com/5GO4eHg.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/c2Z5ECj.jpg)

I was going to get some new steel roundy-round wheels, but found these for about 1/2 the cost. They're 15x7" with 3.75" backspacing.

There are some other parts on order, but it's boring stuff the car actually needs like shocks and strut rod bushings.

As for work actually done today, I jury-rigged fixed one of the rear brakes. The e-brake handle j-bolt broke a long time ago and I ignored it. Turns out the brake adjuster spring in the drum was also broken, so all the parts came loose and got mangled while I was driving recently. Fortunately I had another Pinto rear to scavenge parts from. Between the two, I have one full L/R set of brake springs.  :o

More fortunate still is that the MII brakes from/for the waiting 8"rear end are completely intact, although I have not ruled out a rear disc conversion.  8)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 72DutchWagon on August 28, 2017, 02:27:27 PM
Not that I'm adressing my 72 front brake setup anytime soon, but I'm definitely going to stick with 4 lug wheels.
There are lots of 4 lug wilwood kits available here in Europe for street and race based on the Ford Cortina and Taunus. If I can in some way (probably  meaning fabricating) change out the early Pinto spindle with a Cortina spindle there is no more issue in getting aftermarket brake kits.
Robert once brought over a spindle from a 73, that didn't match the Cortina one but we didn’t  determine if his was an early or late 73 spindle and that does make a difference.
The issue has been addressed here once before (2003) but I don’t believe they ever got to the bottom of it.
Switching to 5 lug on the other hand might in your case not only be wise for practical reason’s but there is also a heavier engine in there?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: pinto_one on August 30, 2017, 07:06:36 AM
If you have Disk brakes up front you may not need an up grade , just need power brakes  , I have it on my pintos and works very well and wish i had them sooner , can lock them up very easy at highways speeds , so no problem , you just might have to install a brake booster ,I believe it can be done , the early pinto is very light , mine is close to being 800 lbs heaver , Auto , A/C , power everything along with a V-6 , My wheels are 15 X 7 4 lug , run a 205/60/15 , everything clears up front , as for the 8" rear end I have a rear housing with axles if you want them , got to pick then up here or anyone that headed your way can , (Free)  and Dutch Wagon I have a set of stock pinto mag wheels if you can get your friend to carry them over to you , stock 13'  had to got to the 15,s because the 13inch tires like 195/70/13 are not sold here any longer , over your way they are ,
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: robertwwithee on September 02, 2017, 02:17:40 PM
Dutchwagon picked some wheels over there in NL.  I will probably head over next year for more training with company.  Love the Pinto group and company that sends me world wide.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 02, 2017, 08:31:33 PM
Yes, the 2.3T engine is about 110lbs/50kg heavier than the 2.0 it replaced and several other parts have added weight or will. The stock 9" brakes feel really inadequate after a spirited drive yesterday.


Update: All I seem to do is spend money and get nothing done. Can't take it with you, right? ;)

New shoes:
(https://i.imgur.com/V80r4Hc.jpg)

New coolers:
(http://imgur.com/lfNZqpu.jpg)

Why won't 11" brakes fit behind stock 13s? Bolt pattern aside, here's why:
(https://imgur.com/lAhty9h.jpg)

It's amazing that these cars stop at all.
(https://imgur.com/8GV4jgJ.jpg)

That's an old Granada rotor I've been dragging around for 10+ years, originally a spare for the Granada swap I've been planning to do on my '68 Mustang for....10+ years.

On a side note, the Mustang has been diverting some of my attention and funds away from the Pinto. A large wood rat moved in while the car was mothballed and not only tore up the engine bay, but destroyed the shift boot and started on the interior. The rat died of acute lead poisoning yesterday and now I'm working toward getting the engine rewired.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 02, 2017, 08:54:38 PM
I had rats getting in my '61 Corvair station wagon (the heater ducting is a "Habitrail" to them). For 20+ years now it has been a storage container and thus (like it sounds with the Mustang) doesn't get driven.  I put it up on jackstands and put drywall mud bucket lids between the top of the stand and the car. The lids seem to make a sufficiently slippery surface the rats can't grab onto and since doing so 5+ years ago have not had a problem.

  Well, no problem with live rats. The smell is still present despite having cut out flooring, securing the opening with plywood and power washing the whole interior numerous time with bleach, laundry detergent and then numerous coatings of Urine Gone.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 07, 2017, 07:43:54 PM
If you have Disk brakes up front you may not need an up grade , just need power brakes  , I have it on my pintos and works very well and wish i had them sooner , can lock them up very easy at highways speeds , so no problem , you just might have to install a brake booster ,I believe it can be done , the early pinto is very light , mine is close to being 800 lbs heaver , Auto , A/C , power everything along with a V-6 , My wheels are 15 X 7 4 lug , run a 205/60/15 , everything clears up front , as for the 8" rear end I have a rear housing with axles if you want them , got to pick then up here or anyone that headed your way can , (Free)  and Dutch Wagon I have a set of stock pinto mag wheels if you can get your friend to carry them over to you , stock 13'  had to got to the 15,s because the 13inch tires like 195/70/13 are not sold here any longer , over your way they are ,

Woops, I didn't see your reply.  :P Thanks for the offer on the 8", but I don't know how I'd get it here.

I can lock the little stock manual brakes, but slowing down from high(way) speed quickly is not as confidence-inspiring.

95% of my brake swap parts came in today anyway. Metric calipers, pads, hoses, bearings, etc.  8)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 09, 2017, 11:34:20 PM
Preview of coming attractions:
(https://i.imgur.com/b5TnNsa.jpg)

I'll leave this to your imagination.
(https://i.imgur.com/9E0VYYE.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 11, 2017, 07:35:59 PM
Sunday was spent modifying caliper brackets and doing the fit up. This side would have been done and installed completely, but was thwarted by needing some brake line adapters I didn't have.

(https://i.imgur.com/72xoqzC.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/wvjMgvv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vMvlsji.jpg)

Yes this weld is ugly, but I'm confident that the strength is satisfactory. I was having trouble getting it all clean enough to use the TIG and resorted to flux core. (That gold chromate is awful) It's welded  more on the other side and that part is under compression during braking.
(https://i.imgur.com/x4Z9BI1.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 23, 2017, 07:59:18 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/TTiDklh.jpg)

Progress was slow due to me being out of town last weekend and no lathe access today, but one side effectively done:
(https://i.imgur.com/IVok1AJ.jpg)

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 07, 2017, 10:58:27 PM
I'm going to roll last week's progress into this weekend's update(s).

The axles required spacers to set the MII bearing offset.
(https://i.imgur.com/eiR55f0.jpg)

and they had to be shortened, which is pretty tough with hardened chromoly
(https://i.imgur.com/ELGkBf0.jpg)

old vs new
(https://i.imgur.com/zvlC0EI.jpg)

MII drums redrilled for fives
(https://i.imgur.com/Fu6ZqK9.jpg)

I got the rear in the car today and the brakes are bled and everything, but I still have to make some hub-centric rings before the wheels go on. Then....test drive.  8) It's going to be a big change going from 3.55s to 3.00s, but I ran the numbers and it ought to be within about 50rpm at 60mph of the '86 'Bird my driveline came from.

Oh, fun fact: the relined Wagner brake shoes I got for this project happened to be old shelf stock and are made of asbestos. The light gray fuzzy fibers gave it away.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on October 08, 2017, 05:52:34 PM
Here is my experience with the 3.00 rear:

1. The T-5, 3.97/4.01 first gear is a near granny gear.  So, I did not find the 3.00 (coming from a 3.40) to be a negative.

2. Initially I was using the 3.00 with 215-60-14" tires. This gave a longer pull time in each gear (more time under boost) that I didn't necessarily see as a negative.

3. The negative I had with the 3.00 gears was that in normal street driving the power band never seemed to fall into a decent point for typical speed limits.  A given gear seemed to wind out too much and an upshift seemed to bog.  I found it very frustrating.

4. I went to 3.40 and for general driving it is very pleasing with the current 175-70-13" tires though I still think first gear is a bit granny.  Eventually I'm going to a taller tire to alleviate that and also get back to the longer pull time under boost.

5. I realize tire size (height) is also a determining factor but in general I think with the turbo motor and the T-5, 3.25 are about the best rear gears. Unfortunately I was told that Ford only offered that ratio briefly and it is almost never found outside of aftermarket. The 6-3/4" did have 3.18 but the strength issue is there.

What is the tire size? I'm looking forward to your impressions of the 3.00. And, as always your work is top notch! As too the asbestos, don't worry, We are too old for that to kill use before something else does.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 08, 2017, 07:14:11 PM
Thanks. The tires I got are 205/50R15 so they're only about 23" tall.

Annnndd....
(https://i.imgur.com/6YTWuYi.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/od9GrMf.jpg)

The back needs to be lowered a bit, but at least it's all back together.

The 3.00 gears are actually pretty good with my car and the 'Bird T5. It seems to accelerate about as fast as before, but can stay in boost longer now.  I did find a 3.25 open center section for sale a few days ago, but now I'm just going to wait until I get a limited slip diff of some kind.

Maybe now I can focus on getting it intercooled.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 15, 2017, 11:42:57 PM
And it needs an intercooler. After bleeding the passenger front brake a little more and finally getting a good pedal, I took it out to cover some shakedown miles. In the upper gears I can hear it pinging. The intake temp hovers around 150°F all the time and only goes up from there when under boost. 16psi is probably a lot for no IC.... :o

It's been a while since the last video, so behold audible pinging:
https://youtu.be/GuZ4ubLonhY

Spent some of yesterday lightening the BOV piston. Original was all brass and quite weighty. I blew the center out and replaced it with an aluminum core. Mass was reduced by more than half, so it should be able to open better than twice as fast. This was done in preparation for a Holset turbo down the line. Rumor has it that the tiny 6mm quill holding the compressor on can fail under high boost surge and that a fast-acting BOV helps prevent it. True or not, it was something I planned to do anyway. I was hoping that the pointed tip would be quieter than the original, but I think it might actually be louder.  ???

(https://i.imgur.com/3mQvyYg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/w0ixJa1.jpg)



And I experimented with anodizing titanium. Because reasons.
(https://i.imgur.com/zkYhGY9.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 73wagon on October 22, 2017, 06:05:31 PM
One of the best looking Pintos ever! Simple,clean looking car.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 31, 2017, 07:27:39 PM
Thanks a lot!  :D

There have been a lot of non-Pinto things taking up my time as of late, so here's a Cliffs version:

- Put five gallons of 100 octane in the car. Car loves it...may be habit-forming.  :o
- No pinging means staying in the throttle enough to discover the engine noses-over at 4500rpm. Suspect worn         valvetrain.
- Seat belt buckle broke last week. Fixed it.
- Vacuumed the interior afterward. Discovered a leaking heater core.
- Got a new core. Not installed yet.
- Got an intercooler plumbing kit. Not installed yet.
- Got some better braided front brake hoses and fittings. Not installed yet.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on November 01, 2017, 09:30:07 AM
Your car should be an example to the world of Pintos that a bunch of cobbled up mod is never necessary to have very nice looking Pinto without spending mega $$$$. Yours is a very NICE car that anyone would be proud of. Keep up the good work!!!!
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on November 01, 2017, 01:08:56 PM
... - No pinging means staying in the throttle enough to discover the engine noses-over at 4500rpm.  ...

That was my experience as well. My set up was from my Turbo Coupe that for 10 years was my daily driver. Obviously a much heavier car. So, I was a bit surprised when the Pinto didn't seem any faster/quicker, only that it made a lot more noise. That, and there was now this presence I needed to shift (4,500 RPM nose over) if I were to perceive an accelerative force. The best way to describe it that is was like a 10 speed bike on level ground and one might have felt it accelerated better starting in 2nd, or 3rd gear as 1st gear was just too low.  The "fun" of my car was with the 3.00 rear gears and 215-60-14" tires, getting up to 40 MPH in 3rd gear and then pressing (not slamming) into the throttle. That made for a lengthy "pull" and thus the most satisfying. It's just that as I stated above with the 3.40 gears it is much better for in town driving and having the right gear at the right time.

I'm wondering if the Pinto/RR cam is any of the difference maker from the T/C/factory flat cam in the way I perceive acceleration???
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on November 01, 2017, 02:23:57 PM
I've talked to several members on here with the Ranger cam, and all say the cam quits pulling above 4500 rpm. It's made for torque in a pick up truck and as such will never see 5, 6, or 7000rpm. Perfect example of saylavee (such is life).
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on November 05, 2017, 10:01:33 PM
Your car should be an example to the world of Pintos that a bunch of cobbled up mod is never necessary to have very nice looking Pinto without spending mega $$$$. Yours is a very NICE car that anyone would be proud of. Keep up the good work!!!!

That's quite a compliment. Thanks!

I happened to notice a sticky note on my desk that I wrote some time back in 2014. It has the stock '86 'Bird engine specs and the power peak is at 4600rpm. That is the stock rating; the cam in mine is visibly worn enough be down on lift by 0.030-0.050" which probably makes it wheezier.

I have a Ranger roller to install to at least bring it back to stock. I think I'll make an adjustable cam pulley to retard timing and bring the power peak in a little later though. It's tempting to just pull the head and take a little iron out behind the valves...
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on November 06, 2017, 01:42:19 PM
One can never say too much on such a good car. Inter it in as many car shows that you can stand. Spread the Pinto love story.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on November 06, 2017, 04:43:05 PM
That's quite a compliment. Thanks!

I happened to notice a sticky note on my desk that I wrote some time back in 2014. It has the stock '86 'Bird engine specs and the power peak is at 4600rpm. That is the stock rating; the cam in mine is visibly worn enough be down on lift by 0.030-0.050" which probably makes it wheezier.

I have a Ranger roller to install to at least bring it back to stock. I think I'll make an adjustable cam pulley to retard timing and bring the power peak in a little later though. It's tempting to just pull the head and take a little iron out behind the valves...

I'll look forward to your impressions of the RR cam.  This is pure speculation on my part but with a turbo I'd think that duration would be more important than lift. The rational being that under pressure you can likely push more air past the valve at the same lift over a N/A engine. But if the valve is only open so long ... might that become the greater limiter???
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: dick1172762 on November 07, 2017, 01:04:05 PM
I have talked to several members on here that are using a Ranger roller cam. They all say you need to grab another gear by 4500 RPM. I talked to one member in the north east who runs a turbo and a Ranger RR cam. 4500 RPM max is what he says. Only thing I can is the lifters. I ran anti pump up lifters in my 80 Pinto race car. With a stock cam it would go past 6000 RPM with ease. This might be problem with the Ranger RR cam. I have Comp Cams anti pump up lifters along with the RR cam in my 80 Pinto soon to be a daily driver. I let you know when I get to drive it again.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 10, 2018, 09:28:29 PM
Perhaps my calling was missed as an archaeologist what with how often I dig up this ancient thread.

Two words: life happens.
-----------------

But this is now, and this is what's going on:

The Ranger cam was a stopgap plan, but plans (always seem to) change. Last week I got a barely used Engle "Hot turbo Pinto roller" whatever cam for a good price. It has a stockish base circle and some healthy lift, so I'll have to check all the geometry and clearances before running it AND pick out some suitable springs. It wouldn't do much on a stock head, but...

There are a lot of project plans that intersect at this point. In order to take advantage of the cam, I need to port the head. In order to do that, I have to pull the head. While it's off, I might as well install the Holset turbo, but that means revamping the exhaust. To leverage the Holset and its copious boost potential, I need an intercooler. To feed the power, I have some 95lb injectors to install.

With guarded optimism I hope, hope to run the car at a local 1000ft drag strip before season's end. Even bought a helmet.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on May 12, 2018, 12:40:33 PM
 I went to the RR cam at the same time I swapped the '88 TC engine to te Pinto.  On thing that struck me was that the Pinto felt no faster than the TC. I was surely expecting the close to 1,000 pound difference to be noticable. I have the small IHI turbo and everything is stock. So, maybe that is the difference right there.


Oddly the major difference I did notice was when I had 3.00 grears and 215-60-14 tires the car had the precence of a long hard pull under boost. That "it keeps going and Going and GOING" feel to it. It was horrible for around town driving though. Never the right gear/rpm for city speed limits.  I went to 3.40 and 175-70-13 (to use the Ralleye wheels) and in town driving was very pleasurable. But that "long pull under boost, going and GOING" was gone. It far quicker hit 5,000 RPM and seemed to die over. And with no real precence of boost until 3,000 RPM it was a quick "blip" of enhanced acceleration. So, maybe in my initial application the RR cam had its place as the RPM's increased more slowly.


One other thing power wise is the 87-88 cars had the fuel type switch. I think it raised the boost only 2-3 pounds but the "Premium" setting sure made a differrence in the TC! In the Pinto, less so but still somewhat noticable.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 18, 2018, 03:04:29 PM
The "octane switch" was supposed to raise the boost a good 5psi and also let the ECU command more aggressive timing. When I had my '84 SVO I just always filled it with premium and left the octane switch on premium.
With the Pinto I have a stock boost control solenoid driven by the MegaSquirt. It could technically control boost infinitely between the low and high settings. However, the range of duty cycle between them is so narrow that it really only functions well as a high/low control like it was originally.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 26, 2018, 09:40:15 PM
Last week I fired the car up and prepared to take it "around the block," but that was thwarted when the brake pedal went to the floor(in the driveway). The last two afternoons have been spent finding out why and trying to fix the cause.

The cause was the caliper banjo bolt hitting the upper control arm, which caused it to loosen and leak.

The solution, if it can be called that, was to swap the calipers to opposite sides and bend the steel ends of the lines quite a bit. This puts both the hose banjo and bleeder at the bottom of the caliper and creates the added complication of having to pull the caliper and flip it over in order to bleed the brakes. I was going to install stainless braided hoses, but they're not long enough with the banjo down low. I'm not happy with the arrangement and still have a minor fluid weep at one of the banjos, but at least the brakes work again.

I'm probably just going to replumb the front brakes and make some rack limiters until I think of a good long-term solution.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on January 12, 2019, 10:40:12 PM
I'm hesitant to bump this thread(already at the top), but have been thinking about it for many months.
I bought a used Engle "turbo Pinto" roller cam from BoPort a while back and some Comp Cam s990 springs from another source. It's all been in a box because all the individual things I want to do to the car are dependent on each other. HY35 turbo needs injectors, intercooler, and exhaust. More power needs a ported head and HY35 turbo. Ported head needs time and a valve job. The O2 sensor is acting weird and I'm not sure if it's a bad sensor or bad controller. Etc etc etc.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on June 14, 2019, 08:36:12 PM
The O2 sensor is acting weird and I'm not sure if it's a bad sensor or bad controller.

I found out last week that...both, but mostly controller. It was an Innovate LC-1 I bought in 2006 and didn't install until 2014 when I put in the Pinto. The sensor was bad too, but it could have failed on its own or been damaged by a malfunctioning controller. It all has maybe 500-800mi on it. >:( I even tore it apart and tried flashing the firmware from the circuit board contacts. The firmware reloaded several times and didn't change the flaky behavior so it's junk. Fortunately I have a newer LC-2+gauge that was going into this car anyway, but now I don't have a wideband O2 for other projects.

Speaking of other projects, that is partly why I haven't updated recently. I was working intensely on a nitro hemi minibike and got slowed down with getting nitro and putting EFI on it plus a bunch of other stuff going on and I still don't have methanol. My Mustang needs attention too.

I also spent the last two hours pulling a rotting mouse out of the cowl of my truck. :P
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on July 06, 2019, 08:14:37 PM
Yesterday I installed a new LC-2 & LSU4.9 (in the stock location with a heat sink as before) originally meant for another project. It seems to work properly, but is showing my AFRs being anywhere from 0.5 to 2.5 points leaner(!) than the old WBO2....like 14.0:1 at 15psi. :eek:

That could explain why the car felt down on power and was pinging a bit.  :o
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 02, 2020, 07:02:44 PM
Off and on for a long time it has been difficult to get the acceleration enrichment right. Usually simple time-based AE that I'm using is fairly straightforwar d; see if it spikes lean or dips rich after giving it throttle and add/remove fuel accordingly. Mine has had a persistent tip-in stumble that didn't respond to fuel. Turns out the TPS sensor shifted and it wasn't reading throttle input until it was already open ~15%. Fixing that, recalibrating, and adding a bunch of fuel rewarded me with a slight AFR increase when stabbing the gas and vastly better throttle response. It needs more polishing, but is already 90% better than before.  8)
The newer wideband sensor is not happy with the heat of being 3" from the turbine, so that has to be moved. Then I might as well make a 3" downpipe. Then I might as well built it to fit the Holset turbo. The Holset won't be fun with a stock engine, so I might as well upgrade the top end.
At this point I've gathered just about all the parts needed to install a ported head with stock valves:
That just leaves porting a cylinder head.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on October 03, 2020, 12:49:15 PM
 Funny how that it, "One thing leading to another." When I first got my T/C the TPS was bad. It does have a minimum voltage setting upon installation.

This should be one fast Pinto when done. Is the dragstrip in Palmdale still there?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 04, 2020, 03:32:13 PM
Unfortunately LA County Raceway closed in I think it was 2007 and the motocross track not long after. Granite Construction turned it into gravel mine. The nearest actual drag strip is Famoso way up by Bakersfield. Willow Springs runs 1000' drags on the big track a few times per month during summer. The shutdown area is pretty short from what I've heard.

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on October 05, 2020, 12:08:49 PM
Yea, when I was a kid there was Irwindale, Lions, OCIR, Ontario (World Finals) and from what I gather a few more tracks in the 50's. Then came and went Terminal Island and LACR.  Irwindale Speedway (not the old drag strip) has 1/8 mile drags. It is hard to figure out where as we have decent weather for the most part, and a car culture, that racing takes such a back seat. But then this is the same area that had two NFL team, then none for quite some time, and now two teams again. Nothing makes sense.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 05, 2020, 09:18:00 PM
The only sense I can make of it is that CA land is really expensive, drag strips aren't usually that profitable, and absolutely nobody wants one in their backyard. In CA, the land of "green" and renewable energy mania, I can't get E85 fuel closer than 60mi in any direction. Not that it's great stuff out of the pump, but I do have the hardware to run it if I wanted.
Title: orly?
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 02, 2021, 12:48:42 PM
I should probably be working on the interior and wiring instead, but I wanna go fast. And hear cool noises while I do.

What do you do when you have a very specific factory Garrett turbo configuration and want to replace it with a diesel turbo that isn't a Holset?
One of these is less like the others...
(https://i.imgur.com/Guh84lN.jpg)
Ever feel alone in a crowd?
(https://i.imgur.com/k2aTpth.jpg)

You buy a cheap T3 turbine housing with the Ford five-bolt pattern and take some measurements. You find out that there's barely enough iron to bore and profile it to fit on the diesel cartridge.

(https://i.imgur.com/YdzFboV.jpg)

I needed some extra clamps and the housing was already centered in the mill, so it functioned as a fixture to do so.
(https://i.imgur.com/qCLu8Vm.jpg)

 What you end up with is a practically drop-in 54/61mm Borg-Warner S2E that bolts onto the 2.3T manifold and uses the stock wastegate elbow. Incidentally, the housing also fits on the closely related S200-56 that succeeded the S2E(which is the one second from left above).
(https://i.imgur.com/T4GgAvC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/a4BSrO8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kiYtHvK.jpg)


The best guess I've been able to make is that it has a compressor map somewhere between the 53 and 55mm AirWerks S2B. This means that it may get pretty close to the surge line depending on when it starts making boost. This is taking the stock top end into account; it probably won't be a concern when the induction is addressed. I can always use the boost control to make a rising curve that stays under surge if needed. Or I can use the S200 with its surge ring housing.
I also want to get away from using the stock ~2 1/8" turbine elbow, but like everything with this little car, that requires moving something else out of the way. Specifically, pulling the heater box and installing a shorter motor to make space for a 3" downpipe. Even without doing that, the alternator is where the compressor has to go so that means finally putting it on the driver's side where a set of empty Pinto brackets have been bolted for...a few years?

The big dent in the compressor outlet isn't something I'm worried about; it ought to seal anyway. If it doesn't, I have an aluminum elbow to weld on it.

That "turbone" on the far left is one of those $98 ebay specials I bought for parts. The specs in the listing were a pack of lies of course, but it turned out to fall right between 46 and 50-trim T04E compressors with an actual stage III turbine. Those compressors are actually well-suited to ~250-350hp 2.3Ts so I almost used it first. Who knows how long it might last though.
There are also more parts waiting at the PO like an intercooler and plumbing. More on that as it develops.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 02, 2021, 01:13:26 PM
I'm no expert on all the "ology" of these turbo mods (why I stuck with the factory set up) but it sure seems you have done your homework.

The heater motor: There have been a number of options. The one I used was the MGB motor and fan, but reverse wired. I mentioned it numerous times here. There was another fan motor someone used that would be more readily available. Perhaps you can find that as I can't recall the application.

All the best in achieving your goal. I got my stock '88 T/C swap in and basically got occupied elsewhere. The Pinto runs/drives but needs refinement. Haven't driven it in a while as all the engine parts for my Corvair SW are in the back. The blessing and curse of having a Pinto wagon.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 02, 2021, 02:07:49 PM
Turbo systems have been a fascination of mine for a long time and engines since childhood so I get a little enthusiastic sometimes. I've also come to realize that the automotive experience should be about what you enjoy and not strictly about what what would be ideal for a given build.

That is partly what drove the turbo choice. The yellow turbo has six main blades and the S200 and Holset have seven. Blade pass frequency is a big contributor to compressor noise and six will generate frequencies that are 14% closer to the midrange of human hearing than a seven will. A larger-than stock compressor will also spin at a lower speed to the same effect.

The stock T3 is loud below about 5psi when the shaft speed is relatively low. It then climbs rapidly until its BPF goes into the 12-14kHz range where most adults' hearing isn't as sensitive anymore. The S2E will drop that to ~8-9kHz range.
The other option was to machine an HKS T-51R style surge ring insert for either the S200 or Holset, but I'm not crazy about the note on seven-blade wheels or how obnoxiously loud they are. Search youtube for "T51R mod" and you'll see.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 03, 2021, 08:03:39 PM
I had a lot planned for today, but got bogged-down making a turbo oil inlet adapter so I can use the stock oil line (the S2E's inlet isn't threaded and can only use a bolt-on flange), shortening the turbo-to-manifold studs(which are A286 stainless and not nice), and removing a factory T3 wastegate can from its bracket. The wastegate was already bad, so it got cut open and the spot welds in the bottom were milled away until it fell off. I'm going to cut the bottom off one of the Borg Warner actuators, put the Garrett spring in it, and carefully weld it back together. The cans are almost identical, so I expect the opening pressure to be in the same ballpark as stock.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 06, 2021, 01:03:59 AM
Suppose you have a couple diesel wastegate actuators designed for 25-30psi and want them to open at 10psi like a stock 2.3T. If you're me, cut the bottoms off, take out the springs, install stock WGA guts, and weld two halves back together.
 
 (https://i.imgur.com/dEcFWgW.jpg)
 
 (https://i.imgur.com/Mgr5q31.jpg)
 
 Stocker on the left compared to diesel parts:
 (https://i.imgur.com/TboC2nC.jpg)
 
 Fortunately my welds aren't easy to see. I hadn't used a TIG in a few years and that was the thinnest metal I've ever done.
 (https://i.imgur.com/v9s9CqN.jpg)
 
 The aforementioned oil inlet adapter.
 (https://i.imgur.com/e5wRANO.jpg)
 
 And it's finally starting to look official. Next is some paint on the WGA and probably a color change for the compressor.
 (https://i.imgur.com/27GZd1q.jpg)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 06, 2021, 11:14:35 AM
That's something I'd never have thought of doing!  What lathe do you have? I'm limited to my son's Atlas 618/Craftsman 101 (never can remember which it is) or even worse my Horrible Fright lathe I got at their parking lot sale for $100 (and not sure it is worth even that).


Regarding the waste gate actuator; due to rotted sheet metal at the battery area I replaced the sheet metal. I built the panel in such a way (indented) that it allowed clocking the actuator just to the left of the frame rail.  Initially I didn't have any issues but for some time now the car will built boost and power and then it just seems that the wastegate will pop wide open (as opposed to a regulated control) and the car falls on its face with a whoosh sound.


I've pressurized the factory intercooler ('88 with a IHI small turbo) to 20 PSI and never got anything but the tiniest of porous casting bubbles. The rubber hoses all appear intact and the clamps are tight. The boost gage (factory) will easily hit 15 pounds but as the RPMs rise (about 4,000 - 4,500 RPM) the car just falls flat. I'm guessing the wastegate is popping wide open instead of regulating and perhaps the clocking of the housing/actuator is the reason??? What do you think?



Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 06, 2021, 04:11:27 PM
It's a Hardinge Toolroom lathe with a Sony DRO. It's pretty nice. My only gripe is that it's not set up for metric thread pitches.
Assuming you still have the ECU controlling the boost solenoid, it sounds like it might be detecting knock. The ECU then reduces boost back to 10psi and pulls a bunch of timing. It's an aggressive strategy and the engines really nose-over when it happens, but it keeps them from blowing up.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 09, 2021, 07:56:22 PM
Not much to post about the Pinto right now other than it's all torn apart and nothing is going smoothly. I forgot how tight everything fits in the car because all the engine wrenching I did was with it on a stand and then I stuck the engine & trans in together.
The 3G alternator and A/C mount had to come out before the turbo+manifold could, then it couldn't go back because now there's a bigger turbo there. Fortunately I have a 2.3 Pinto low-mount set. Unfortunately the 3G won't fit in the lower bracket unless I swing the alternator out pretty far....which can't be done because there's a battery in the way. The Pinto brackets also change pulley alignment and only allow for one belt with my setup and that's not enough for a 130A 3G. What I've had to do is take three regular 1G alternators I had shelved to make one good one and then convert back to an external voltage regulator for the time being. (https://turboford.org/images/smilies/dodgy.png)  My hope is to have it back together and running this weekend even if I don't get an intercooler installed.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 10, 2021, 09:50:28 PM
I converted back to an external regulator, moved the alternator, cut/lengthened/modified the charge air tube to fit until an intercooler is fitted, and fortunately didn't have to run to the parts store; somehow I had three new 43" alternator belts for a 2.3 Pinto. There's about 0.020" of space between the Vreg and battery and maybe 1/4" between the alternator and battery hold-down.


(https://i.imgur.com/0F2TQj3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tzkzbCc.jpg)


(https://i.imgur.com/g5gMPSD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rroA2HH.jpg)

Now the exhaust elbow hits the the heater motor thanks to the Chinese turbine housing.
(https://i.imgur.com/vSBKULw.jpg)

Other than pulling the heater box and changing the motor for a shorter one that I already have, it's nearly ready to run.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 11, 2021, 11:46:59 AM
I'm guessing that when you go to an intercooler (Assumed FMIC) you will have to move the battery to the trunk anyway. These 2.3's in a 71-73 seem to have feeler gage clearance in all four directions.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 11, 2021, 07:41:59 PM
I hoped to avoid moving the battery (again) and can get an FMIC in without doing that, but it would sure free up a heap of valuable real estate. There is so much going on in that front corner of the car. Battery, Vreg & harness, distributor, alternator, throttle body, blow off valve, and soon intercooler plumbing.
Spent most of the day pulling the heater box and changing the core and fan motor. Once that was done and I had some turbo clearance, I went to bolt the downpipe back on only to find that it now hits the frame because the Chinese turbine housing doesn't have the wastegatbow bolt pattern in the same place as a real Garrett part.  >:( I had to cut and weld the downpipe on an angle up by the turbo and in the process the MIG welder gas regulator got stuck or ruptured or something and wasn't working right.  >:( I limped it along and got things glued together anyway. Now the downpipe fits around the frame, but no longer reaches the rest of the exhaust. At that point I'd had enough and called it a day.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on April 12, 2021, 11:09:52 AM
Yea, being cheap like I am I used the factory '88 T/C exhaust..., yes..., even the convertor. Well..., once I got to needing a muffler (under the rear seat) everything changed beyond that. The down pipe dips a bit too low so I go over speed bumps with care. I had to slightly indent the frame rail and the outside of the down pipe. It was a little of this, a little of that but I had sufficient clearance without anything looking like it had been "beat on." I also remember (it has been about 12 years now) my son and I taking the lengthy exhaust system, straddling it in the press to bending the pipe in some fashion.

Thanks for posting your progress. You are one of the few turbo guys that posts anything these days (where are all those 'going turbo' guys from years ago???). That and the fact your car is from Simi Valley (the next city over), I had considered purchasing it - and for all these years seeing it was in good hands has made it an interesting "follow."
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on April 14, 2021, 07:54:21 PM
I figure this can serve as an example of what may be necessary to stuff a 2.3T EFI drivetrain in a pre-'74 Pinto. A common attitude that I found before starting the project years ago was that it's simple, straightforwar d, easy, etc. This undoubtedly came from people who had never tried it and at best knew that Pintos came with a 2.3 sometime in production, so surely it would be simple, straightforwar d, and easy.

It is none of those things. Nothing actually fits in the car without modification, moving something else, cutting, welding, or making custom parts outright. Well, except the T3 turbo's wastegate actuator. Maybe I'll type up a list of my own gotchas some time and add it to your "So you want to do a turbo swap" thread.
Anyway, the car is running again and I drove it a bit. It's back to an open downpipe for now and sounds more awful than I remember. Surprisingly it also makes no turbo noises anymore; the T3 was quite loud. Boost response is better than expected although worse than stock. Boost recovery between gears is perceptibly slower, probably due to the larger turbine and compressor. The wastegate actuator's baseline ended up being a few psi lower than stock and turning the controller up from 23% to 50 brought peak boost to exactly 14.7psi on the data logs. The pulls weren't long enough to see if it creeps higher due to running out of road.
I'm going to break down and remote-mount the battery(moving something) so plumbing an FMIC and working on the engine will be less of a headache. Pretty sure I still have everything to build a full exhaust also plus some nice v-band flanges to make it cleaner.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 01, 2021, 08:43:30 PM
I've been working on the car, just not updating everything here as it's done. I removed the hood latch, cut-down the grille/hood latch/front apron support to clear the/an intercooler, put the ugly spare hood on and installed hood pins, spaced the grille out by an inch like a '74-76 car, and haven't taken pictures of any of that. Yet.

I took a deep breath and cut the tanks off a Spearco bar & plate intercooler and drew some templates for a new "back door" tank design that will make plumbing less difficult.

(https://i.imgur.com/UplI4yO.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/X5NOsTi.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/HyIT8Hm.jpg)

And I probably would have had most of it welded as of this writing, but the TIG welder's cooling fan bearings packed up and it was a three-hour venture getting it apart and fixed. (it's a 700lb transformer machine) After the intercooler gets welded, next is plumbing it, relocating the battery, installing bigger injectors, and...I dunno, maybe a muffler?
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on May 08, 2021, 09:23:59 PM
I finally got the end tanks welded on a little while ago and that was a harrowing experience. I have a #9 and #17 TIG torch and found out the hard way that the gas hose to my larger #17 had completely dry-rotted its whole length and was losing the shielding gas. I started to get suspicious when 50cfh was hardly coming out the torch end. I ordered a new 25ft hose and used the little aircooled #9 torch in the interim. It gets hot very fast and requires frequent cool-downs.

 It's only the 1.5th time I've TIG welded aluminum and it looks like it, not to mention I had to remake one of the tanks because the first turned out so bad. There were a lot of things I did wrong and/or the hard way and I suppose the important part is what I learned. The biggest one is to start with new, clean metal.
I still have to make some threaded bosses for mounting the intercooler and weld them onto the top and bottom, but once that's done I can bolt it onto the car and start relocating the battery.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on May 10, 2021, 11:30:04 AM
Well, I have never TIG welded so I for one will not comment on the welds.  My son has TIG-ed and says it is a learned skill. Life gets interesting as you get older. I've been a car guy my whole life. I majored in High School Machine Shop and Welding but back in the mid 1970's they were still "old school" methods.

 I spent a year at LA Trade Tech College in their Machine Shop program. But frankly I got frustrated. I knew that in the automotive/engine building world you need to work at times within 10,000th's of an inch. Maybe it was just the equipment we had to work with but I'd measure, see I needed to turn something .003 and set the lathe to cut .0025 as a cautionary cut and find it cut .004! Smog laws were getting stronger every year, performance was down as much as high horsepower insurance rates were up.

I just decided to shift my teen year dreams of working in a speed shop and got into Television Production which I also had an interest in.  I've always wanted to improve my machining/welding skills but now in my 60's I've concluded my son is far more capable than I am. Today my struggle is to cram my needs into his "busy" life. So, regardless of the results you may not be pleased with there is still admiration for your perseverance.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on August 13, 2021, 08:11:39 PM
I took a break from the Pinto for a while and focused on getting a new road bicycle because my old one was so decrepit from years of hard riding. Then I got a used backup bike. Then a used mountain bike. Then parts and accessories and gear. I'm not done, but the car cruising season will be here before I know it and want to get some in when the weather is good.

Last Friday I took the car out and nothing was out of the ordinary. It's still loud, but I notice the turbo sounds much better after the time away. Then on Saturday I needed to move it and the battery was flat. It was showing ~12.2v open circuit, but a small accessory load of 4A pulled it right down into the high-6v range. I'm going to try a desulfating charger on it, but that may not work since it's an Optima AGM. It's getting replaced anyway so nothing to lose by trying. Since the battery is getting relocated, now I have to decide if it's worth the hassle and expense of finding group 51 AGM batteries and using the billet tray I already have or getting a regular battery box and using a standard group 24F. Total cost is about the same.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 28, 2022, 12:52:26 AM
Turns out the Optima 151R battery was done for. By this time last year little 151R batteries were averaging $150 and availability was questionable. It had to be moved anyway, so I opted to use a bigger spare battery and move it all to the hatch. Now the hard part and running theme is figuring out where to fit it. The gas tank has to come out in order to put it on the driver's side. It can't go on the other side if I want a spare tire(and do).
The steering wheel I was going to put in it didn't have enough dish, so at least I got this one installed.

Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: oldkayaker on September 28, 2022, 06:27:07 AM
I was able to install a 24 size battery in the right rear of my previous 71 runabout.  It was a lot of work and very inconvenient.  After doing a lot measuring, I cut and welded some of the interior sheet metal creating a recessed box/tray area for the battery behind the right rear wheel well and behind interior stock paneling.  It was very tight fit (no room for a battery box) so rubber padding was used to protect the battery plastic case.  I seem to remember even modifying the side light socket to create more room.  When done, the only visible evidence of the battery was by looking up inside the right wheel well where part of the metal box/tray could be seen.  In order to get to battery for maintenance, the interior panel needed to be removed along with the hatch spring assist arm which takes a while.  J.C. Penny had just come out with a maintenance free battery with a long warranty which was used.

Unfortunately this was a long time ago and I have no photos.  I used the car for towing and had reinforced the rear floor area with bolted in angle iron.  The car was rear ended, crumpling up the exterior sheet metal above the rear wheel wells.  I believe the angle iron reinforcements saved the gas tank and battery.  The insurance company totaled car.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on September 30, 2022, 10:45:09 AM
I hated to put my battery in the drivers side/front of the engine compartment, but I didn't want it encumbering the ability to put large items in the back of the wagon. Obviously the battery can't go where it originally was intended what with the turbo now being there. Just to balance out the drivers weight the passenger front would have been better but I have the T/C relay box and the VAM hose (VAM/air cleaner is inside front fender) running through there. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.



Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on September 30, 2022, 08:03:19 PM
What kills me is that the 151R is a small battery that's factory for bunch of modern-ish cars, but it's twice the price of a 24F and twice as hard to find.  ???
Since there's nowhere to fit an oval 20" muffler, I got a minimalist Flowmaster FlowFX 71419 (https://www.holley.com/products/exhaust/mufflers/absorption_glass_pack_mufflers/flowfx_series/parts/71419) round one to tuck somewhere in the tunnel. Then I can run just pipe over the axle and out the back.
The fuel lines were also leaking when I primed the pump recently. Tightening the clamps fixed that, but they need to be done properly for obvious reasons and I picked up some more -6AN fittings and hose to facilitate that. Plan is to remove the original 1/4" vapor line, use the original 5/16 feed line as a return, and run a new 3/8 hard line for supply. It should also clean up some plumbing around the tank and add a better high-pressure filter downstream of the pump. Fun fact: late model Pontiac GTOs use a filter much like the mid-'80s Fords with Bundy fittings on both ends, but the fittings are 3/8" instead of 5/16. Problem is they're hard to find now.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on October 02, 2022, 04:58:03 PM
I was able to install a 24 size battery in the right rear of my previous 71 runabout.  It was a lot of work and very inconvenient.
I have started to seriously consider removing the rear seat and putting the battery box in the passenger side seat well.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on December 13, 2022, 09:44:30 PM
Well, I kept the back seat and routed the 0awg starter cable under the car instead. The charge cable and solenoid wiring goes through the driver's side door sill where I originally put the fuel pump wiring. I left the original solenoid on the fender simply because it was easier to tie into the stud on it than move the old charge wire/fusible link across the engine bay. Who knows, it might be useful as an emergency spare some day. I'll be doing more work on the car this weekend and will get some photos then.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on December 19, 2022, 01:23:54 AM
The car has a tediously-tied tarp over the back due to a hatch leak and that prevented me from getting good pics of the battery box install. As soon as that was done and the car driveable, I tore it apart again to start tackling exhaust.  ::) 3" exhaust.
I managed to get about 1/2" of clearance between the vent motor and bellhousing. Might put a short section of wrap on it by the bellhousing. I finally have an O2 sensor bung that fits under the car away from turbine heat. For some reason I included a second one near the stock location anyway.  ???
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: Wittsend on December 19, 2022, 04:49:35 PM
I think that is the first time I've seen the turbo exhaust fit (much less at a generous 3") with the factory fan motor! That is quite a feat. I used the MG motor/fan that gets run backwards with the factory set up. Marginal but something is better than nothing. I believe there was a modern Dodge fan someone else said worked too.





Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: oldkayaker on December 20, 2022, 04:43:51 AM
Nice fabrication to get a 3" exhaust tube to fit.  Below is a link to the thread showing a Dodge Caravan fan motor being used for increased clearance.  There is always the option of using a A/C heater box which relocates the fan motor to inside the car.Turbo swap 1980 Runabout (fordpinto.com) (https://www.fordpinto.com/your-project/turbo-swap-1980-runabout/?topicseen)
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: firepinto on December 21, 2022, 08:40:54 PM
I've been seeing a lot of drag racing cars using a battery that is super small.  Mike Finnegan used one on the side of his radiator support on Blasphemi.  Which did fall off I believe lol.  But I see most are mounting them under the dash next to all their EFI units.  They look like the size of a 4 pack of butter.  I was thinking of trying one in the fender in front of the passenger side front wheel.
Title: Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on December 23, 2022, 08:13:24 PM
I think that is the first time I've seen the turbo exhaust fit (much less at a generous 3") with the factory fan motor! That is quite a feat. I used the MG motor/fan that gets run backwards with the factory set up. Marginal but something is better than nothing. I believe there was a modern Dodge fan someone else said worked too.
I should point out before anyone gets their hopes up that the fan motor pictured is in fact a shorter VDO PM3652 unit. I had it on the shelf and was forced to use it when I installed the current Frankenstein turbo; a Borg-Warner S2B with a Chinese Garrett/Ford T3 housing machined to fit on it. The turbine outlet bolt pattern was rotated about 10° from the stock location and moved the wastegate elbow rearward at least 3/8 of an inch I didn't really have.

The downpipe layout I have now would probably hit a stock fan motor. It would be much easier to notch for clearance though.
Title: Re: A 1972 turbo swap adventure
Post by: 65ShelbyClone on January 07, 2023, 08:34:13 PM
I got the exhaust essentially done this evening. It was done a week ago, but the v-band flanges warped from welding and were leaking. They are the lipped stainless flanges, so sanding them flat would be a lot of work and not guarantee anything. Instead I made some small gaskets out of desoldering wick (woven copper ribbon) and coated them with high-temp RTV. Seems to have done the job.
I had to use the actuator from a Chinese ebay turbo that the wastegate assembly came from because the flapper post is bigger than the stock one. I could tell it has a stiffer spring and after setting it up with stock preload, it makes 15psi on the gate alone. That's alright, but I'd prefer having the 10psi option and will have to make a new end that fits the old actuator threads and the new flapper.