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Author Topic: A 1972 turbo swap adventure  (Read 95782 times)

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Offline Wittsend

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2014, 12:40:14 PM »
Wow, thanks for all the progress updates. In a lot of ways it is like reliving my project.  There is some comfort in knowing I wasn't the only one who had the issues you encountered.  A few comments:

Seven times I had the engine in/out before I committed to welding the motor mounts. I also hammered on my pan a bit, but then I have the odd (bulbous ended) '73 rack.

 On the transmission mount even reversed you still have to get those bolt holes (slot) WAY far back - don't you!

On the starter bearing protrusion I slightly notched the rubber and then indented the rack clamp (do at your own risk). But, yea it is tight. I even had to grind down the head of the rear clamp bolt because the starter was hitting it.  This swap probably has about five areas you could measure the clearance with a feeler gauge. Dick, thanks for the starter info.

I don't have anything to add regarding the "flywheel" on the drive shaft. Thankfully my 2.0/C-4/6-3/4" drive shaft fit perfectly with my 2.3/T-5/8". However, if you find the cable to crossmember clearance to be a problem you might add an extension like this (image 1). You have to bend the bellcrank arm outward slightly for better alignment.  I also put a small tab on the bracket as an anti rotate if it got loose.

Lastly, how does the shifter feel position wise? (are you punching the dash in 1-3-5)? I'm 6 ft. and prefer my seat back.  It was quite a process to cut (shorten) and extend (rearward) the shifter and still get the motion to feel correct.

All the best and thanks again for the updates.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2014, 02:07:58 PM »
Wow, thanks for all the progress updates. In a lot of ways it is like reliving my project.  There is some comfort in knowing I wasn't the only one who had the issues you encountered.
 

I was a little concerned about spamming this thread too much. :) The weather has been unseasonably hot and humid the last 10 days, giving me only about an hour before dark in the evenings to do stuff (like swatting at eye gnats), so progress has been in small steps.

Quote
A few comments:

Seven times I had the engine in/out before I committed to welding the motor mounts. I also hammered on my pan a bit, but then I have the odd (bulbous ended) '73 rack.

On the transmission mount even reversed you still have to get those bolt holes (slot) WAY far back - don't you!

Mine ended up not being that far back, possibly because the engine is marginally higher and forward of where a lot of people put it. I think I could have gotten away with just flipping the crossmember.

Quote
On the starter bearing protrusion I slightly notched the rubber and then indented the rack clamp (do at your own risk). But, yea it is tight. I even had to grind down the head of the rear clamp bolt because the starter was hitting it.  This swap probably has about five areas you could measure the clearance with a feeler gauge.

The main reason I opted for more clearance in the tight areas was to allow for any sagging the engine mounts may do as they age.

Quote
I don't have anything to add regarding the "flywheel" on the drive shaft. Thankfully my 2.0/C-4/6-3/4" drive shaft fit perfectly with my 2.3/T-5/8". However, if you find the cable to crossmember clearance to be a problem you might add an extension like this (image 1). You have to bend the bellcrank arm outward slightly for better alignment.  I also put a small tab on the bracket as an anti rotate if it got loose.

If the mounts relax enough to make the cable hit the crossmember, I'm just going to notch it. Fortunately the engine pulls upward on that side.

Quote
Lastly, how does the shifter feel position wise? (are you punching the dash in 1-3-5)? I'm 6 ft. and prefer my seat back.  It was quite a process to cut (shorten) and extend (rearward) the shifter and still get the motion to feel correct.

All the best and thanks again for the updates.

I'm 6' 4" and probably have a longer reach, but I'm still going to relocate the shifter. My arm is out straight in neutral and it's only tolerable, not comfortable. There is about 4" between the stereo face and shift knob in 1/3/5, so not bad there. The plan is to make a bracket like yours, but with a stock-looking stick and knob for a touch of stealth.  ;D
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2014, 01:58:23 AM »
Has it been a week already?

Got an upper radiator hose that (generally) fits:


If anyone is wondering, it's for a '74 2.3 without A/C and without extra cooling. The same hose cross-refs to the lower one for an early '90s Toyota pickup V6 2WD.

And finished the shifter bracket made from scrap:





That 3/8" aluminum plate was tough too. May have been 7075.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2014, 10:16:18 AM »
Did you cut or bend the shifter at all? I did both to my T/C shifter and it is still longer than yours. Is yours a Mustang shifter?  How does the motion feel? It has been a while, but my recollection was that when I angled my shifter back as you did (I actually made a slot for adjustment) my arm and the transmission were not "at one with each other."  It confounded me as it is all the same flat plate transferring the action, but when I went to a vertical bolt orientation it worked much better.  BTW, my son is a machinist and make R/C car parts on the side. He makes parts out of 7075 and yes, it is "tough" - and cost more too.

Your lower mounted alternator works well. My upper hose must cross over the top of the alternator and I have a plastic anti chaffing shield on it. The price I pay for using the factory '88 harness.  Any date you anticipate that it will be ready to go?

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2014, 12:27:26 PM »
Did you cut or bend the shifter at all? I did both to my T/C shifter and it is still longer than yours. Is yours a Mustang shifter?

The shifter stick wasn't modified and I think it is original. This one is very similar to what was used '87-93 Mustangs. although it's from an '86, it looks very much like this one from the '87 sale literature: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/65ShelbyClone/Public/1972%20Pinto/23L-turbo-engine_zps8605a01b.jpg. What's curious about that is the mechanical clutch linkage that appears to be direct-pull. For those unfamiliar, 1987-88 Turbo Coupes went into production with a hydraulic clutch.

Quote
How does the motion feel?

Notchy and loud with a mushy isolator like a typical T5.  ;) I'll go to a solid stick mount when I get a short shifter that has adjustable stops.

Quote
It has been a while, but my recollection was that when I angled my shifter back as you did (I actually made a slot for adjustment) my arm and the transmission were not "at one with each other."  It confounded me as it is all the same flat plate transferring the action, but when I went to a vertical bolt orientation it worked much better.

My shifter arm has the obvious z-bend and it's twisted toward the driver side by about 20° so it doesn't align with...really anything. Putting the stick and shifter on the same side of the plate made it slightly more centered over the tunnel.

Overall the bracket moved the shifter centerline back about 1 7/8", to the right by ~5/8", and angling the stick back gained another 2-3".

Quote
Your lower mounted alternator works well. My upper hose must cross over the top of the alternator and I have a plastic anti chaffing shield on it. The price I pay for using the factory '88 harness. 

Since I'm still using the standard 17" radiator, I found that the high-mounted alternator pulley and belt cross right in front of the radiator inlet. Back to the passenger-side until I can track down a low-mount driver's-side bracket pair. I plan to install A/C eventually and put the compressor on the passenger side, so that alternator will have to move.

Quote
Any date you anticipate that it will be ready to go?

About two months ago. :o

Mid-October is what I'm hoping for. The big hurdles now are plumbing the fuel system wiring everything for EFI. I have been avoiding dropping the tank to drill the vent restrictor for fuel return and replace the filler neck grommet.

On that note, how did you run your fuel pump wiring? I have the whole FP harness from the 'Bird and I'm wondering if I should run it through the cabin and out a hole in the hatch floor(like the 'Bird) or route it under the car somehow.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2014, 05:34:56 PM »
I ran the Pink/black fuel pump wire down the floor of the interior - passenger side of the car. At the rear wheel well I ran it behind the plastic.  My car is a wagon and at the very back is a 1/2" hole wires pass through (and, there is similar on the other side).  There is a carpet finisher plate (steel) at the rear just before the hatch. I ran the wire out the hole, across the back under the finisher plate to the rear drivers side. It is here it connects to the fuel shut-off switch. On a sedan I assume the wire would just be run across the back of the trunk.

 The wire then goes into the similar hole on the drivers side and drops down into the rear quarter panel body cavity. There is a rubber grommet with wires coming out of the cavity (under the car) for the fuel sender. I poked a hole in the grommet and drew the wire through (it fits snugly). From there I wire tied it down with the sender wire to the pump which I mounted forward of the axle and externally just behind the rear seat. The pump is a??? late 80's/early 90's F-Series external pump.

Thus, I never had to drill a hole and had an air tight connection where the wire exited the internals of the car.  For my fuel return I drilled a hole in the sender, put a piece of steel tubing in and soldered it. Probably not the best idea because the electrical connection melted and leaked (JB Weld to the rescue) and if I ever need to replace the sender I'm doing it all over again (but at the time it seemed like a good idea and retained the tank vent).

The fuel lines were the TC plastic lines and I used one of those barbed  repair pieces to connect as needed.  I know I preach it all the time, but this is where having the donor car makes all the difference.  I mean just right here you have the harness, the safety switch, the fuel filter clamp and the fuel lines.



Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2014, 10:32:10 PM »
Thanks, that all helps a lot. :)

I got done dropping the tank a few minutes ago and noticed an access plate in the spare tire well. That might be a possible wiring route or wherever the fuel sender wires come from. I'll know more in the daylight.

The tank is growing some barnacles inside, BTW. Someone also replaced the sender float with a sealed(?) clear plastic lawnmower fuel filter.  ???
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2014, 10:13:22 PM »
Old float:


New old float found in the parts stash and custom pickup sock. Base is Teflon, screen and clamps are stainless. Not nearly as fine a mesh as the original, but there is going to be a filter between the tank and pump anyway.


Barnacles:


After some (tons of) tedious work with a small wire cup brush and a pick:


My attempt to fix the problem: 11gal of water, a cup of baking soda, a piece of rebar, and a battery charger:




Hopefully rust isn't what's holding the tank together.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2014, 12:29:16 PM »
What a great idea!!!! BTW you should use the soda made for laundry in the yellow box. Works much better.
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2014, 02:48:24 PM »
It was a judgement call on that one. Make a $15 trip to town to get washing soda or use 25¢ worth of what I had on hand and get it rolling a few hours sooner. All I could really find about washing soda is that it is more caustic and works faster. I've used baking soda before with satisfactory results.

While the tank is percolating, I'm trying to decipher a wiring diagram and figure out where to pull some 12v power that's hot in start + run for the EFI. What a convoluted thing.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline Reeves1

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2014, 09:39:00 PM »
Interesting... .had never seen or heard of cleaning a tank like this.

Would it be possible to start a topic on this in another section ?

ie: How to clean a gas tank

Does it just attack rust ? Or inside coating as well ?

Offline dick1172762

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2014, 10:30:00 PM »
It will remove some, break loose some, and neutralize some. Most will be loose and require some form of help in coming fully loose. Wire brush if you have a tiny arm and can reach in side the tank, or as someone on here said, a length of chain, lug nuts, rocks, just some way to break it loose. BIG problem is that as it dry's, rust will rear its ugly head and start the same ole process all over. Tank would have to be re sealed at once or you might end up with a tank in worse shape than when you started. With new tanks cheap (up north anyway) I don't think the time you will spend along with the cost of the tank sealer will be worth it. It might if you could come up with a cheap sealer, but as Dandy Don use to say to Howard, "if and buts were peanuts and nut, oh what a merry Xmas we would have.
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2014, 11:37:19 PM »
The only new replacements I can find are from Spectra and the lowest price I have seen is ~$225 OTD. With a new sender it's closer to $300.  >:(

I figure that I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying to revive the old one.

Interesting....had never seen or heard of cleaning a tank like this.

Would it be possible to start a topic on this in another section ?

ie: How to clean a gas tank

Does it just attack rust ? Or inside coating as well ?

I haven't found a straight answer on whether it takes off coatings (like the tank's galvanize) or not. Once the rust on your steel part is completely converted back into iron, the process effectively stops. The sacrificial anode might still continue to corrode.

There are endless topics on it spread across the net. Search for "electrolytic rust removal washing soda" or "rust removal washing soda" or something with those key words. I zapped some baking soda in the oven for an hour a 400°F  to make washing soda, which is allegedly more effective. I'll find out tomorrow.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2014, 01:34:31 AM »
I recently used the battery charger and washing soda (sodium carbonate - also available at pool stores) to remove rust from a file. It works exceptionally well because there is no abrasion to the file teeth.  I found that the response of the process could be varied considerably by the distance between the file and the angle iron I was using to attract the rust.  I say that because I'm thinking that varying the location of the rebar might help. Perhaps rubber hose on the ends to space it close to, but not in contact with the tank. Then just move it an inch every so often.

Anyway, it is a total trip to watch the process.  Wish I had known about it years ago. My lungs would sure have appreciated it.  I've also considered plugging holes, filling floorboards with the solution and then spacing an iron plate. I'm looking forward to 65SC's outcome on the tank internals.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2014, 12:50:06 PM »
Do this process out side as the gas given off is VERY flammable. Not good for the lungs too.
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2014, 06:16:28 PM »
It's definitely outside because the tank is filled to the brim and foams over a bit.

There was positive progress with baking soda, but boy, washing soda is a different animal. It looks different when dry, acts differently when dissolving, is rougher on my hands, and is doing a number on the sacrificial anode. I'll dump the tank this evening and see how the inside looks.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2014, 09:24:18 PM »
For the curious... - this is the rust the process pulled off a 1/2" round file.  The piece of angle iron looked like the cleaner sections before I started.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2014, 11:08:59 PM »
I put off dumping the tank until this evening in favor of letting it simmer all last night and today. There were still patches of crud, but it was almost all soft and fairly easy to scrape off.

The whole upper 3/4 of the tank looked like the darkest spots here.  :o


A little lot of elbow grease with this:


Resulted in 99% of the interior looking like this:


Pretty sure the light gray parts are the original galvanize, so it looks like the process doesn't remove it, which is good. Overall it's not great, but I think it will buy me some time until a better tank shows up. Tomorrow it goes back in and the rear plumbing can finally start.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2014, 05:30:32 PM »
Have you considered any of the tank sealers?  I have heard it both ways where some have had no issues and others say it came off in sheets (attributed to the alcohol in the fuel). Never tried it myself. Anyone with good results to report?

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2014, 07:47:57 PM »
I did consider sealer, but didn't think the tank was really worth a $50 experiment. Besides, the tank is back in already and I ain't pulling it back out! There is going to be a clear filter on the pump inlet so I can monitor crud.

Instead of modify the stock vent to be a return, I made a billet hat with an NPT elbow and barb.


I also started tearing the rear interior apart to route the pump wiring, relay, and inertia switch. That's about it for today.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2014, 01:15:04 PM »
Just remembered something about gas tanks from the past. I've fixed several tanks that had pin holes in the bottom of the tank by turning the tank upside down and soldering the holes shut. The tank's solder very easy and never re leak. Point is, if the tanks are galvanize coated how does the solder stick? Maybe some other coating is used. And when was the last time you saw a piece of galvanized metal that was rusty?
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2014, 01:22:27 AM »
Ended up making a bash plate and mounting the pump under a back seat.


And got this:


which will go here:
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2014, 08:13:29 AM »
Kinda like this deal. 8)

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2014, 12:52:35 AM »
Thanks.  :) The elbow is offset to leave room for a second one in case a dedicated vent was necessary later. The filler cap already is fortunately.

A few more. This came in today:


And I'm finished modifying this to have all the extras I want:


My plan now is to dismantle the whole engine/ECU harness and re-route it how I want through a smaller grommet.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2014, 11:01:46 AM »
What are the ECU mods?  Is there a link somewhere regarding the changes? Not sure with a LA-3 they would be applicable to me, but I'm still curious.  I assume the cam is a Ranger/Mustang roller?

So many Turbo conversions seem to "lag" (pun intended - but not). It is encouraging to see yours "spooling" all the time.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2014, 11:22:03 PM »
The ECU is a MegaSquirt-II v3.0 standalone, so the circuits unfortunately do not apply to Ford EEC-IV systems like yours. I had to make changes so it has spark and fuel table switching on the fly, launch control, flat shift, boost control, fan control, tach output, and a shift light.

And yeah, the cam is a Ranger roller. Got it cheap and the old slider with 214,000mi has good patterns, but advanced wear. The RR may go in when I get rid of the upper intake.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2014, 08:47:48 PM »
Are we having fun yet?


Survey says: not really.

Pulling the trigger on the hole saw felt exactly like pulling the trigger on the welder when the engine mounts went in.


I went with a smaller 1.25" grommet scavenged from another harness in the 'Bird. The main 10awg EFI power wire goes through the little hole in the middle and will be routed to the main relay and on to the fuse/distribution block. About 2/3 of the wires are run into the cabin already, but I didn't get a photo.

Fun fact: there are about 6.5 quarts of oil in the pan and still nothing shows on the stick.  :o

Things left to do before it can fire:
- run some more wires
- connect heater hoses
- make high current cable for 3G alternator
- make a heap of soldered connections in the MegaSquirt DB-37 plug, probing and checking each circuit as I go
- build a battery tray and hold-down.
- install negative battery cable.
- make new TFI coil bracket to fit the original coil's hole pattern.
- install electric fan

Things left to do before it's relatively finished and/or drivable:
- make a gauge console and install tach/boost/temp/pressure/volt gauges and shift light and bolt the MegaSquirt inside with a permanent DB-9 bulkhead for easy tuning access. Still debating on whether or not to outfit the ECU with an FTDI serial-to-USB adapter. Probably won't.
- install the 8in rear end
- redo the upper intake arrangement so I can close the hood without cutting a huge hole in it.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2014, 09:24:36 PM »
Just a few minor details,lol.. ;D ;D
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Offline Wittsend

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2014, 09:58:37 PM »
"Pulling the trigger on the hole saw felt exactly like pulling the trigger on the welder when the engine mounts went in."

Isn't that the truth!

Not sure where you intend to put the battery, but the T/C battery tray (with a little trimming) fits nicely in the drivers front if you move the washer tank.  I used some PVC pipe on the nubs on the bottom of the tray to carry support down to the frame rail. I used the T/C tank and mounted it in the drivers wheel well.

Did you do the remote TFI with the heat sink? Under the hood real estate goes fast, but I found space forward of the drivers side hinge.

Thanks for the update.  I always enjoy projects that are moving forward.

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Re: My 1972 turbo swap thread
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2014, 10:51:00 PM »
My battery is going in the same place. The difference is that I'm using a small group 51R that won't fit in the TC tray. There is no foot on the battery for the tray or hold-down to grab, so I have to either buy one of these: http://optimatrays.com/viewitem.php?type=tray&id=39, copy it, or roll my own.

The TFI module is going to stay put. With my setup it won't be doing anything except sending a low-current tach signal to the ECU. The ECU then has an IGBT coil igniter that I added so it can fire the coil directly. It would have been easier to let the TFI module do the heavy lifting as designed, but I want to be able to completely cut spark for rev limiting. The TFI module has a fail-safe feature where it still fires the coil at base timing if it is cut off from the ECU. Pulling the SPOUT connector does exactly that for checking base timing.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.