Author Topic: attempted air conditioning in a turbo pinto (Read 11026 times)

dholvrsn · « **on:** August 17, 2009, 12:05:00 PM »

Ladies and Gentleman! Step this way to see this amazing, most logic defying feat! A man will attempt to install air conditioning into the rare and uncommon turbo Pinto! An exhibition rarely attempted in the civilized world! Not for those of the weak constitution!

My turbo setup in a '79 wagon. I could almost say typical turbo Pinto setup, but even though it's been done enough to almost be a cliche, I don't think that any of them are really typical.

The factory in-dash AC that I will be trying to hook the newer stuff to.

The AC manifold with aluminum heat shield. Also the oxygen sensor on the turbo elbow has been relocated.

The two fan relays mounted on the driver's fender well. The rear is for the radiator fan and the front is for the condenser fans.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #1 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:12:43 PM »

The electric fan that I am running now, which is the biggest that I could find to fit the factory AC radiator.

The spot where the old piston pump was and where replacement pump is going.

The replacement pump and bracket from a circa '93 2.3 Mustang at the south Omaha U-Pull-It. I will try to install at least the bracket after dinner today.

The original hoses that will either be reused, spliced, or replaced depending.... Note accumulator on the one hose. I'm a newbie at this, so anybody who knows AC hoses please give some advice.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:24:23 PM »

The factory condenser that came out of this car. I dinged it with a die-grinder and took it to a radiator shop to fix the ding. The ding was about the only thing that didn't leak. A more efficient replacement condenser and drier combo is UPSing its way across the US from Nostalgia Air. I was reading about how cars with driers don't have accumulators and that cars with accumulators don't have driers, but this has both. Don't ask me why....

The original factory AC fan and shroud that came out. The fan interfered with the serpentine belts which is partially why I put the electric fan in.

The two electric fans slated for the condenser.

If all those electric fans can't keep up with the heat from the AC and turbo, here's a $5 swap-meet goodie that I picked up yesterday and I may swap in with the factory shroud if it all fits.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #3 on:** August 17, 2009, 02:16:40 PM »

Turns out that the pump and bracket didn't have enough room to fit in the Pinto. Now there was two and a half hours in 95? heat and $50 at U-Pull-It well spent....

However these may work on turbo Pintos with the VAM box mounted on the other side of the fender well.

OTOH. with mixed luck, a weird old T-Bird compressor and bracket that I did have already have laying around did fit despite looking too weird and big.

Now to clean those up for final mounting.

Update/omake: The old compressor set-up that originally came from the factory.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2009, 06:43:23 PM »

The UPS tracker says that my condenser has arrived in my town, but it hasn't made it to my house yet.

Anyway, two contractors were digging up the street in front of my house and one asked if my Pinto was '71. He bragged about how much he loved his '71 wagon with wood decals back in the day.

Cleaned up my compressor bracket and installed it. Also relocated the horn yet again. The first time was to make way for the VAM. Now moved again to make way for the compressor pulleys... I love "rivnuts"!

Cleaned up and painted the compressor. Probably too much work for something that is half likely to get exchanged.

Also spliced in a compressor pigtail on a Merkur meets Pinto meets homemade harness. I like to solder and shrink tube all of this stuff.

For peer review, here is my schematic for the wiring on this. I'm glad that I got most of this done during the initial engine swap. No wonder that swap dragged on.

lugnut · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2009, 11:38:27 PM »

FYI, your new compressor is a Tecumseh HR980. Same as what came in my 1987 Turbo coupe. The prevailing opinion seems to be that it should be used with R-12, and not converted to r134a. I would not let that stop me from using it- there is still lots of R12 out there- check ebay. I also recently saw brand new HR980 compressors in the Ford box for $130-150.
mike

dholvrsn · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2009, 06:19:36 AM »

Is there a bolt-on replacement for the HR980 that can stand R-134a?

And what does happen if you do put R-134a in a HR980?

71pintoracer · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2009, 12:21:52 PM »

R134a won't hurt it. Just make sure you drain all of the old oil and refill with PAG. The HR980 was a decent compressor. I never use R12 anymore, I convert everything.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2009, 01:54:11 PM »

I read over at TurboFord that the HR980 will run for a year or so filled with R-134a and then will disassemble itself out through the front.

Scratching my head over what to do about the compressor while this project is in a lull waiting on UPS to deliver the condenser. Hopefully I will have some sort of epiphany about what to do about the compressor by the time I get the condenser mounted.

RIght now I'm toying with cutting down the mount for the tangental mount compressor or making a custom one out of ~3/8 plate iron.

I'm reminded about the ordeals that my Dad (Iowa pig farmer) and Grandpa (the Allis Chalmers dealer in Moorhead, Iowa) had with aftermarket air-conditioning in the aftermarket tractor cabs of the '60s and '70s. Pretty kludgy, clunky hang-on stuff that could be temperamental and high maintenance. I wonder how much Dad spent trying to keep cool in the ol' One-Ninety XT over those years, especially adjusted for inflation!

OTOH, AC in the AC! :afro:

dholvrsn · « **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2009, 03:14:51 PM »

Still waiting for the UPS man with his brown shorts and my aluminumy condenser. Their office says that their guy is on the route. His surname just seems to be Mister Godot.

During this lull, I did try a sliding bracket and compressor with ear tabs from my parts pile. It fits in the space. Now to find a R-134a variant on that compressor with a six groove serpentine pulley.

blupinto · « **Reply #10 on:** August 19, 2009, 04:40:41 PM »

Did you remind that contractor that there was no '71 Pinto wagon? lol. I hope your a/c turbo project is a success! How (pardon the pun) cool is that?!

hellfirejim · « **Reply #11 on:** August 19, 2009, 04:48:26 PM »

I am interested in how this all works out as I have an arizona car that has a/c from the firewall back. I am missing everything forward of the firewall.
jim

dholvrsn · « **Reply #12 on:** August 19, 2009, 04:50:14 PM »

I let it the wagon year thing with the contractor slide. It would have only got the guy peeved in a moment of joy.

BTW, I believe that the compressor is probably a Nippondenso rebranded as a Ford. If it is, do any of you AC wonks know of any Nippondenso compressors with the mounting ears, a six groove serpentine pulley, and is R134a ready? With reference number or donor vehicle? Thanks!

BTW, still no UPS dude with condenser. Their tracker hasn't updated since last night.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #13 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:04:54 PM »

The condenser came at a quarter 'til 8 tonight. Gogo and Didi are dancing. Although Pozzo and Lucky are a little grumpy and cynical....

A little too late to start anything. Especially because tonight is the end of my annual vacation and I'm back at work at 6:30 AM tomorrow.

Here it is with the old unit plus the angle brackets that I'm going to use to mount it. The representative of Nostalgia Air Parts ways that it's big enough.

lugnut · « **Reply #14 on:** August 19, 2009, 11:31:44 PM »

I'm 99% sure that the one you painted black is a HR980. I did not mean to say that the HR980 is junk- I have one working great on a turbo Bird using R-12. (I stocked up when it was still cheap!) But the hr980 can fail with the higher pressure of 134a under extreme conditions (low airflow, small condenser, overcharge etc) But hey- you already have the compressor- why not give it a try- whats the worst that could happen? You lose a/c is all! I believe there is a kit to mount a Sanden compressor in its place. I saw it somewhere on the web last month when I searched on 'hr980' but i don't remenber where. Regarding Nippondenso, you might be thinking of the one you have with the 4 mounting holes, which may be a FS6 or FS10 which iirc was built by Ford under license from Nippondenso. Maybe you can look at junkyards for what they used on 4 cyl Rangers after they switched to 134a, or try searching on different cars on Rockauto.com
Most of the above is off the top of my head from some research i did on the web earlier this year. Sorry I can't give any links!
mike
BTW, thanks for the pics and info- I may be trying the same thing in the future!

Quote from: dholvrsn on August 19, 2009, 04:50:14 PM

I let it the wagon year thing with the contractor slide. It would have only got the guy peeved in a moment of joy.

BTW, I believe that the compressor is probably a Nippondenso rebranded as a Ford. If it is, do any of you AC wonks know of any Nippondenso compressors with the mounting ears, a six groove serpentine pulley, and is R134a ready? With reference number or donor vehicle? Thanks!

BTW, still no UPS dude with condenser. Their tracker hasn't updated since last night.

oldkayaker · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:24:28 AM »

Very little experience here but will add my 2 cents. That first compressor with a serpitine belt pulley looks to be very compact and being the latest model, you will have the best chance of finding one already running 134A. What part of the assembly caused the interferrence? I was hoping to use this compressor when I get around to doing this. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

If go to http://www.turbotbird.com/ and look under Tech Articles, Latest Additions, there is an article titled "R12 to R134 Conversion" which seems to indicate that the HR-980 compressor can be run on 134A.

That last compressor with a V-belt pulley and 4 ports looks identical to the one on my 1986 5.0 Mustang. Although it uses R12, the pulley is the serpitine type.

The later model AC systems use a expansion valve located inside the high pressure hose between the condensor and the evaporator. The Pinto expansion valve is located in the aluminum block on the fire wall. I suspect that only one should be used.

71pintoracer · « **Reply #16 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:24:37 PM »

The HR980 was not used for very long. The main problem with them is they would leak at the shaft seal. I still have the tools to replace the seal. As far as using 134, I converted a friends car over more than three years ago, I replaced the seal and added a pusher fan to help cool the condenser. No matter what type of compressor you use, (or freon for that matter) you have got to keep the condenser (and the engine temp) cool. Push the high side over 250 and you are not going to get brrr cold air and your compressor is going to hate you. A good rule of thumb is that your high side pressure at idle should be 100-120 psi higher than the outside temp. However, the hotter it is, the the more your high side will go up. So if it's a 100 degree day, you will probably see 250.
The "expansion valve in the liquid line" that oldkayaker is talking about is an orifice tube. It does not control the amount of freon going into the evap core like an expansion valve does, it is a fixed rate so the compressor is cycled on & off to keep the evap from freezing. They work good, just a little harder on the clutch.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #17 on:** August 25, 2009, 06:55:34 PM »

I haven't abandoned this project... Yet.... Just that the target keeps moving and I'm waiting for the parts to come.

I made up some 2x1/8" aluminum tabs to mount the condenser with the plan being to drill new holes in the radiator support instead of using the originals. Then about an hour after I made them, I had a new wrinkle on how to possibly mount this using the factory holes. Ended up buying new electric fans because the ones that I planned on using with the original condenser are a little too big. Grrrr! After I survive this, I'm going to have a garage sale to clean out some excess parts like this and get a bit of my money back. I'm now waiting for the fans to arrive. The final mounting of the condenser will be based on a fan flanking each side of the center radiator brace.

At this point I decided to buy a rebuilt compressor instead of risking a junkyard one being good. I tried to find an rebuilt compressor at the parts store down the street. None have both the big ears and the 6 groove serpentine belt. That compressor for the 5.0 was so close but yet so far with everything being off by about a centimeter or so. Ended up buying a universal-fit replacement Sanden 508 online for less then a rebuild at the store. The current plan is to make an adaptor plate to hang it on the HR980 bracket.

Here is my bracket collection. After doing some measuring, I found out that serpentine bracket from the late '80s and early '90s 2.3s holds the compressor about 1" closer to the frame. The mid '80s (and maybe earlier) FS6 bracket will work as is. So if you're already have a V-belt setup on your turbo Pinto, keep it that way because because it's already a bolt on. Here's the HR980 bracket I milled down and somewhat smoothed out with a Dremel to take the 508 that I'm waiting on it to arrive. Although I'm not sure if it really needed all that work.

BTW, took Wee Beastie to an alignment shop with a $10 off coupon today, Was told that two tie-rod ends wore worn and the rack was leaking and was given a $948 estimate. I'm going to be fixing this myself after the AC ordeal is over.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #18 on:** August 26, 2009, 08:27:47 PM »

Got the new fans today. They're from a company called Thunder Chicken Racing. What's almost funny is that my old high school team was called the Thunder Hawks, which were sometimes derogatorily called the Thunder Chickens. My old school district doesn't exist any more, went though dissolution. Anyway, I flipped the blades for that they can arch the proper way and burn through that Bernoulli thingie when used as pushers. Off course the polarity will to be reversed in best technobabble or Mad Science fashion.

This is the condenser with the new wrinkle brackets and the new fans mounted on it.

This is the condenser ~~on drugs~~ mounted on Wee Beastie. The new brackets fit the factory condenser mounting holes. The one fan sits lower to clear a lot of stuff. The power steering cooler had to be bent slightly forward to clear that fan.

My replacement accumulator came today. I had the idea that it was a direct replacement. Turned out to be a generic replacement. Not that I'm out of much since I would probably have to replace the hoses either way. Looks like I'll start making mounting brackets tomorrow out of scrap aluminum strap.

Unless the compressor arrives, then I'll got going on finishing up the adaptor mount out of scrap aluminum plate.

OTOH, I'm starting to wonder if I really like Pintos this much to go through all this expense and effort. Not that I went through these thoughts 27 times during the turbo swap.... $:-\$

71pintoracer · « **Reply #19 on:** August 26, 2009, 09:53:37 PM »

Your condenser has a drier on it, why do you need another one?

dholvrsn · « **Reply #20 on:** August 27, 2009, 11:46:26 AM »

I'm adding both a drier and accumulator because the Pinto orignally came with both.

I have no idea of what was Ford's logic behind this....

oldkayaker · « **Reply #21 on:** August 27, 2009, 07:48:26 PM »

Thanks for sharing your project details. According to the Ford manuals that I have, the Pinto did not come with a accumulator/drier. They used a receiver/drier. The item bolted to your condenser and the generic Parker item both look like receiver/driers, hence 71Pintoracer's question. I suspect it might work with both providing you use only one clutch control system and one pressure drop point. If the accumulator/drier is installed, it goes between the evaporator and the compressor suction. Not sure if the accumulator/drier would tolerate the higher pressure and temperature if installed where the receiver/drier is located. Interesting project.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #22 on:** September 02, 2009, 06:16:32 PM »

I'm not going to argue with you, but apparently my goofy Pinto hasn't read the Ford Manuals.

To go over a couple of points: If I would have stayed with the V-belts while doing the original engine swap, I could have mostly bolted something like this in. If I didn't want the modern and oh-so- trendy belt tensioner, I could have washered and spacered something like this together and bolted it on.

Instead, I machined a bunch of webbing out of a HR-980 mount, made my own adapter out of an piece of 10mm thick aluminum plate I got out of the dumpster, plus some spacers and a rear mount to make up for some of that missing webbing.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #23 on:** September 02, 2009, 06:25:12 PM »

Here is the whole thing assembled outside the car.

Here is the whole thing mounted on the engine, plus the belt and tensioner.

I even mounted one of the original hoses, with new O-rings.

Here's the other end on the condenser. I had to tweak it only five times to fit without rubbing anything.

I'm planning on taking this to Jones Auto in Omaha tomorrow if it doesn't rain or other mishap. Get a the other hoses made and everything flushed and charged. I'm hoping that I don't have to move anything because of clearance gotchas or that the dry for an unknown number of years evaporator doesn't blow out.

hellfirejim · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2009, 06:12:44 AM »

Nice work. I love it when a plan comes together....
jim

oldkayaker · « **Reply #25 on:** September 03, 2009, 01:36:05 PM »

You are correct, Pinto's did use an accumulator as you stated. The Ford manuals leave a lot to be desired. Looking more closely, the manuals seem to indicate the Pinto had a suction accumulator starting in at least 74. The manuals are not complete enough to tell on earlier years. My 71 had a dealer installed A/C which did not have a suction accumulator. I was confusing the term accumulator with the "accumulator/drier" used in later Fords. Learn something new evryday about these cars.

The installation looks great.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #26 on:** September 03, 2009, 02:52:47 PM »

Well, the plan fell apart. I was going to go ahead even in today's rain and got tripped up by the other mishap catagory. I got 11 blocks into my commute and my goofy Pinto quit (I'm starting another thread to ask about this). I hope to fix it by Labor Day and try to make it to the AC shop on Tuesday or Wednesday.

dholvrsn · « **Reply #27 on:** September 09, 2009, 10:45:36 AM »

I took Wee Beastie to the Air Conditioning shop to have it finished up and do what I don't have the expertise to do myself. Looks like this may cost me $500 to $1100 (or more!) extra. Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! :amazed:

Above being a project that I thought that I would have done back about four weeks ago when it was still above 90? and I initially thought would cost between $300 and $600.

There may even be an additional bugaboo with the Ford expansion valve in the manifold having a tendency not to hold up well and being unavailable as a replacement part. I'm hoping that somebody like Mr. Morgan can help me out in case this thing is bad.

OTOH, about the youngest mechanic there though that a Pinto van with a turbo "Mustang" engine was pretty cool and looked like a lot of fun.

Plus I'm Pintoless for two or more days... And having withdrawal effects....

dholvrsn · « **Reply #28 on:** September 12, 2009, 09:40:55 AM »

Checked up on my Pinto yesterday after work. The new hoses were fabricated and attached. The hoses for the compressor were ran through the hole in the fender well where the old fresh air snorkle use to be. However the AC manifold leaks. I'm hoping that it's only a bad O-ring or two instead of something even pricier.

hellfirejim · « **Reply #29 on:** September 16, 2009, 05:35:11 AM »

Quote from: dholvrsn on September 12, 2009, 09:40:55 AM

Checked up on my Pinto yesterday after work. The new hoses were fabricated and attached. The hoses for the compressor were ran through the hole in the fender well where the old fresh air snorkle use to be. However the AC manifold leaks. I'm hoping that it's only a bad O-ring or two instead of something even pricier.

Keep the faith... These things usually cost more than planed especialy a first time doing something. You have provided alot of good insight to get this done and it is appreciated. When it is done, could you give us an overview on what you did and what you would have done differently knowing what you know now?

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Author Topic: attempted air conditioning in a turbo pinto (Read 11026 times)