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Author Topic: V8 or no V8, that is the question  (Read 10148 times)

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Offline Pangra74

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V8 or no V8, that is the question
« on: January 08, 2010, 11:20:20 AM »
Ok everybody,

I have the 8" rear for my 74, complete with Mustang II shock mounts, so I can get the more available MII rear shocks. The rear end swap is a definite must do.

From a donor car, I have aquired Mustang II V8 frame mounts, motor mounts, stock exhaust manifolds with the stock header pipes, oil pan and front sump for the oil pump.

I already have a Turbo Coupe T-5 in the car.

I was planning on getting a 1969-1973 302 long block as they were rated at 220hp with a 2 barrel carb which shouldn't be too much power for the 4cyl T-5. ( I think they are good to about 265hp)

On the V8 swap thread, it says that the firewall will need to be pounded a bit. Does that go for the 74 and up with the larger engine compartment? Are we talking major modification, or just a few inches of clearance?

I also noticed that the stock Mustang II exhaust manifolds point straight back and then turn down, probably at the bellhousing. has anyone out there used the stock Mustang II V8 exhaust? have you had clearance issues?

I know a lot of you like the 2.3 Turbo swap as opposed to the V8, but you just can't beat that "lug-lug-lug-lug" sound of a small block!! I also think the car will be quite the sleeper and cruise well with a V8 and overdrive.

Anyway, any advice would be helpful

Joe
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Offline jwise12345

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2010, 11:54:04 AM »
you should definatly do the swap. From the sound of it you already have a lot of parts for the job. As for the firewall, if it's '74 and up there shouldnt be any modification required.

I say take the oppurtunity and do it, with that fifth gear it should cruise pretty good and to be honest... who doesn't like the sound of a smallblock? ;D ;)

Josh

Offline yblock64

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2010, 04:57:05 PM »
Joe- I am also planning a V8 swap on my '79 model using the identical Mustang II parts you are using. My swap will use a C4 auto instead of the 5 speed. I've been told the firewall won't have to be hammered using a Mustang II small C4 bellhousing, but I'm not sure about a manual bell. I have been told the 4 cyl. 5 speeds are too weak to use behind even a stock V8, so you may want to consider a 5 speed from a V8. Richard

Offline Pangra74

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2010, 06:18:15 PM »
Richard,

The Turbo Coupe put out 190hp into the T-5. A stock 69-73 302 V8 with a 2bbl makes 220hp. Probably wouldn't be a problem as long as I don't punish it, and remember, the Pinto is really light, so there will be a lot of wheelspin before anything gets really strained. My other option is to sell the two 4cyl T-5's I have and get one for the V8. Probably should do that.....

decisions, decisions.....

Thanks for your input,

Joe
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2010, 08:11:47 PM »
To my knowledge the T-5 for the 2.3 has two drawbacks excluding its strength.  One is that the input shaft is of a different length than the V-8, T-5.

The other is that the first gear is right around 4.00.  Most of the V-8's had something on the order of 3.35, 3.55 and a 2.95 (I'm doing those ratios by memory so correct me if I'm wrong).

Just for comparison, the 4 speed Toploaders came with a 2.32 (close ratio) or a 2.78 (wide ratio).  I know a number of people who dislike the 2.3 first gear even with a turbo.

If you are basing your decision primarily on the existing T-5 you might want to reconsider.
Tom

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 10:15:06 PM »
I forgot about the input shaft differences in length. The pilot diameter is also different from a V8 T5 and  4 cyl. T5. That low 1st. gear would a bit much, too. It should be a fun ride once you work out the details. Smallfryfarm said a V8 in a Pinto is a LOT of fun. I'll bet your turbo set-up was quick too. At least you are making progress, mine is at a standstill due to work getting in the way of my hobby. Good luck! Richard

Offline smallfryefarm

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2010, 09:05:18 AM »
Well this is a desicion that you have to make, what do you want. For me it was kind of a dream since i was 17. I dont think you will have to much trouble on the 74 doing the swap, and i think the v8 t5 bell will fit with no firewall change, so i would think of trying to find one later to have ready cause im sure you will be doing some upgrades to the v8 as you go along. ;D I have always been into hotrods and i like HP, and this little pinto with this V8, well its just FUN. Drives very good, and i have done other things to it to really acomidate the extra HP. Its just different and i think purty as it is fast. Cant wait till spring so i can cruise her in to the drive in, shes goina turn some heads. But this being said my car turned out to be much more than i expected, i mean even more fun than i could imagine and SO glad to have had the chance to do it. So fun that soon hope to find another and do it again.
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Offline Pangra74

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2010, 11:24:47 AM »
Hey guys,

Thanks for the input. I'm aware of the 2.3 T-5 input shaft situation and I know there is an adaptor out there to extend and resize the pilot size for the V8. Seems like too much trouble to have a extra little piece in there. First gear is really low with the 2.3 and sometimes if I'm rolling I start in 2nd gear. My stock rear is a 3:40 and the 8" rear I have is a 3:55, so it will be even lower after the swap. Probably the best way is to do it right is with the V8 T-5. Then if I want to build the motor more, I won't shred the tranny! I'm sure I can sell my other T-5's. The one in the car is freshly rebuilt with under 1000 miles on it, and the other shifts just fine but has a noisy input shaft bearing, easily repaired. Any of you guys ever thought about using electric power steering? A lot of these guys building EV electric vehicles are using these electric/hydraulic power steering pumps from a Toyota MR2. You can put the pump anywhere and eliminate the horsepower drag on the engine. You do need a sufficient alternator to handle the electric load, but the motor/pump only turns on when it senses steering movement with a sensor on the column and stays off at high speed. Might be a way to keep the engine compartment less crowded. Smallfryefarm, are you using V-belts or a serpentine on yours?

Joe
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Offline smallfryefarm

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2010, 12:22:50 PM »
Well because my car is a 71 i went with a fordmotorsport s short water pump and used their aluminum pulley set run, me around 300 dollars but i dont think will have to worry with this. you might have room for standard water pump and could use either one. Keep in mind v belt uses standard rotation water pump and rev on the other.

David
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Offline smallfryefarm

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2010, 12:25:46 PM »
If you really want to enhance your project when you do the rear end install take out the leaf springs and throw in a set of ladder bars and coil over shocks. Helps get the power to the pavement. And you can run bigger meats.
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Offline Pangra74

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 03:22:23 PM »
You have any pics of the coilover setup? Was it a bolt in kit?

Joe
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Offline hellfirejim

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2010, 04:38:19 PM »
You know there is another way to do the rear and that is with the CAL Track springs and traction bar.  I have been a pinto with this and it works really well.
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Offline smallfryefarm

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2010, 04:50:00 PM »
not a bolt in but i could email some pics if youd like
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Offline Pangra74

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2010, 09:10:44 PM »
if its not too much trouble, send pics to joebone8@comcast.net .

Thanks,

Joe
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Offline entropy

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2010, 09:30:40 PM »
I recently tracked down the guy who did the V8 conversion on my car and he told me that the T5 was out of a Turbo Coupe. Now, my engine is putting down a dyno-proven 272 rwhp and 350 lb/ft of torque. The previous owner used to run 1/8th mile drags with that combination and I drive it on the street on weekends...som etimes aggressively.. .and, shockingly, that 4 cyl T5 has held up since the car was built in the late 80's.

A couple of caveats: 1)  The previous owner also installed a thoroughly ill-advised 4.11 rear gear and the car will spin the MT Drag Radials through 3rd.  2)  I'm sure if the car ever hooked it would start breaking parts with the quickness. 3)  I am in no way endorsing this combination, just saying what's grinding away under my nasty little monster.  If I were you, I'd dump that trans and buy either a Cobra T5 or, better yet one of the G-Force upgrades.  Then you'll have some headroom when you start tacking on more power.
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275 rwhp 350 lb/ft on motor.....some thing a bit more than that on the spray.

Offline smallfryefarm

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 10:26:44 AM »
Joe i sent you some pics let me know if you dont get them. I have more im sure if you need. But this will give you a basic over view of the build.
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Offline smallfryefarm

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 10:30:47 AM »
Joe i just got a notice that they didnt go not sure why. Send me a email at smallfryefarm@yahoo.com i will try to reply with pics. May have to wait and send tomorrow from work if all else fails i will post them here.

David
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Offline Pangra74

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 01:15:08 PM »
Hey guys,

Check this link. It pretty much explains the history and specs of the T-5

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/t5_history.htm

Joe
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Offline pintoracer02

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2010, 04:24:49 AM »
Im right in the middle of a v8 swap in my 79 pinto. I used a 2.3 t5 with a 5.0 bell housing and bought a roller pilot bearing from ebay. the only difference i've found is the smaller diameter of the input shaft where it goes into the pilot bearing and gearing. The v8 clutch setup all worked except for that pilot bearing. You do not have to modify the firewall in mine with the t5 setup even tho you cannot fit your finger between the fire wall and the bell housing. I bought the swap headers for the conversion from hooker headers. I went a head and used the stock pinto frame mounts and just beefed them up with more bracing. they will work but i had to add about a 1/4 inch thick piece of steel behind the passenger side frame mount before i welded them to the frame. the drivers side moves forward about an inch too. I've pretty much got the engine all mounted in my car all i have left is to rebuild the 8" axle i bought and rewire everything. I would consider buying a fuel cell and moving it up inside the hatch tho there is no room for duel exhaust out of the back of the car. The conversion is definitly a lot of work but i know it'll all be worth it.
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Offline pintoracer02

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2010, 04:29:45 AM »
go ahead and count on running an electric fan and hood pins. you have to cut the top of the core support out to get the motor in and mount the radiator on the outside of the core support. it is really tight in the engine compartment. My buddy has a v8 s10 and his was stupid easy compared to the swap in my car. But mine will look cooler and its a ford :showback:
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Offline smallfryefarm

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2010, 05:55:14 AM »
pintoracer02 beileive me it will be worth the time and effort. your gonna llike.
the core support is tight on the install but you can do it without cutting it. and to me a think it looks much better uncut after your done.
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Offline Pangra74

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2010, 11:42:12 AM »
I'd like to keep the core support intact. I once stripped a Pinto and cut the top support to get the engine out easy. I was amazed at how much the front of the car flexed with that small section of stamped sheetmetal missing. If anything, I'm thinking of adding a steel box to house the new radiator which will help stiffen the core support. I figure if I can get the car up high enough in the rear, I can get the engine/tranny in in one piece. I don't have a lot of ceiling height in my carport. I have to get the rear in first anyway, maybe over MLK weekend. I'll probably sell my two 4cyl T5's to help pay for a Cobra t5. I guess I will be having a V8 swap sale to unload a lot of stuff I recently invested in the 2.3. I'll post everything here before I ebay anything.
I'm going to do a photo essay of the entire job if it can be of any help to anyone.

Joe
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Offline smallfryefarm

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2010, 12:30:17 PM »
Thats the way i did mine the first time in tranny and all hooked the chains to the front head bolts set the tranny down thru to the floor jack then eased it in. it gets a little tight right at the end when the lower bell has to clear the cross member but it went in. the next several times i pulled the tranny left the bell hooked to the motor. have to go slow this way and go in at a angle, you need a motor leveler on the hoist so you can move around but it will go in with the bell hooked up. That way you dont have to fight your way up to those bell bolts after its in
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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2010, 06:06:12 PM »
I bought a parts pinto with a 302 installed in it.There was no mods to the firewall done and the stock pinto frame mounts were used.Im putting a 1967 cougar 289 engine in my pinto and using the original c4 tranny that came with the 289.From what ive heard and read,the 289 and 302 blocks are the same size on the outside so its just a matter of copying what was under the hood of my parts car and swapping it all into my 77.Im gonna freshen up the 289 by replacing the valve seals and other gaskets(it only has 65k original) so should still be pretty solid.It also has the original exhaust manifolds that point toward the firewall(on drivers side) so no motor mount interference.H eaders for a v8 are a little out of my budget so manifolds are the way to go for now.I tried 5.0 shorty headers on my parts car and they wont fit unless i raise the motor an inch and a half or so,which i do NOT want to do.I dont want to raise the center of gravity .Also gotta switch from points distributor to electronic Ign.My brother had a 302 pinto back in the day and it had a 2bbl and went like a scared rabbit(no joke)I have a 600cfm edelbrock for mine and i was thinking if his was a 2bbl mine will be even faster with a 4 bbl even though i have manifolds instead of headers.Ah well,if it dont turn out to pop wheelies itll sure turn heads at the car show,thats the main thing.

Offline pintoracer02

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2010, 07:05:01 AM »
Iv'e not done it but i heard you can switch sides with the shorty headers where the collector is out of the front of the heads and they will fit but your exhaust runs under your crossmember then. I went with the hooker headers swap and they were still a pain to get to fit. I plan on bracing the core support back up and putting sort of a strut bar between the front frame rails in front of and below the crank pulley. Any body made a good set of subframes they have pictures of? I still have to make some.
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Offline LilPonyExpress

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2014, 02:07:50 PM »
I bought a parts pinto with a 302 installed in it.There was no mods to the firewall done and the stock pinto frame mounts were used.Im putting a 1967 cougar 289 engine in my pinto and using the original c4 tranny that came with the 289.From what ive heard and read,the 289 and 302 blocks are the same size on the outside so its just a matter of copying what was under the hood of my parts car and swapping it all into my 77.Im gonna freshen up the 289 by replacing the valve seals and other gaskets(it only has 65k original) so should still be pretty solid.It also has the original exhaust manifolds that point toward the firewall(on drivers side) so no motor mount interference.H eaders for a v8 are a little out of my budget so manifolds are the way to go for now.I tried 5.0 shorty headers on my parts car and they wont fit unless i raise the motor an inch and a half or so,which i do NOT want to do.I dont want to raise the center of gravity .Also gotta switch from points distributor to electronic Ign.My brother had a 302 pinto back in the day and it had a 2bbl and went like a scared rabbit(no joke)I have a 600cfm edelbrock for mine and i was thinking if his was a 2bbl mine will be even faster with a 4 bbl even though i have manifolds instead of headers.Ah well,if it dont turn out to pop wheelies itll sure turn heads at the car show,thats the main thing.

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2014, 02:49:45 PM »
I Was Wondering How You Made Out And If Still Have The Car. I Bought a 1979 Pinto That Someone Butchered They Used House Wiring From The Solenoid To The Battery Cut Out The  Spark Control Module And Voltage Regulator The Tail Lights Are Jumped To Each Other. The Only Good Thing Is The Car Runs, The Steering Column they Hammered Where The Key Switch Goes They Made a Goofy Sheet Metal Hood and scoop. I Have Bought A Used Hood , Trunk, Front Seats, Steering Column , Key Switch, Matching Keys And Locks For Doors And Trunk, Have a Used Set Of Tail Lights On The Way, Complete Wiring Harness, Radiator Is To Tall The Hood Won't Shut Down The Radiator Needs To Be 2.5 Inches Shorter. The Gas Tank Looks Like Someone Used a BIG Hammer And Just Beat it. I just have A whole Lot Of Work Ahead.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2014, 02:56:56 PM »
Keep us up to date please.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Offline LilPonyExpress

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Re: V8 or no V8, that is the question
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2014, 04:28:43 PM »
I Have Pictures   Of Some Of The Work And Parts I've Installed When I Get A Chance I will Post Them.