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Author Topic: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb  (Read 36498 times)

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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2014, 11:44:07 AM »
understood.  but pinging hasnt popped up until i got greedy trying to get close to 34-36 total.  if i back initial down to 6-8, it goes away but my total suffers (around 26-27).  haven't changed vacuum advance at all yet.  i would like to limit it as talked about before.  if there any way to know that youre close to a reasonable range of vacuum + initial by checking initial timing in park with vacuum advance hooked up?  or even in drive at idle with someone else holding foot on the brake so im able to check my initial timing?  im sure i can limit vacuum, but how much is too much?

this is my first 4 banger ive tuned.  spent a lot of time over the years with holleys on small block v8s.  yes carbs with smaller primaries like edelbrocks, rochesters, carters, etc might get better gas mileage but ive never been able to match performance.  i persoanlly hate the edelbrocks, just good for cruising around.  im pretty good with the rochester 2 barrels just because i have to be for some of the circle track classes ive run.  as far as holleys, most people just instantly go for a holley that's too big.  the best combo ive used on a chevy 350 is a 450 cfm holley mech secondary 4 barrel carb with no secondary accelerator pump (non double pumper).  it required swapping to a 1850 model 650 metering block to get the right fuel curve.  that carb was dead reliable and could hit full throttle from any rpm, dead stop to 3/4 throttle cruise with no hesitation or flat spot at all.  cruised and drag raced with it.  got very good mileage for a 350 v8.  i like tuning and having all the small parts interchangeabl e.  only thing that kills them is throttle shaft bushing wear.  once they are worn they will never perform right.  there are a lot of ill performing holleys driving around but when they are right they work.

that being said, i know there is nothing wrong with the factory carbs.  i wanted to clean the car up, get rid of the 1980 vacuum mess, and use something im familiar with.  we now have a header, no catalytic converters (took out two) and no smog pump.  wasnt sure what small parts id have to buy to rejet if necessary or tune the stock weber.  some of these old carbs like rochesters can be a pain to get the small parts for and for me to be satisfied with the weber i would have had to eliminate all fast idle, choke, or any other annoying automatic mouse traps on it.  i warm my cars up with my foot in the colder months.  can't stand something that chooses rpm for me or locks out my throttle blades.  no offense to anyone on carb preference but i was just intrigued on here with the success people have had with the 350 holley.  so far i am pretty happy with it.  the stock weber is still sitting around but i doubt i'll try and go back.  i supposed if i get a spare moment i'll do some investigation and figure out where the issue with it is.

im more interested in getting a better flowing intake now.  and i may also switch to an 8" rear that a friend has out of a mustang II to go from 3.08 in the little 7.5 to a 3.40.

i type too long of posts haha, thanks for all the help, all opinions and ideas are much appreciated, this is one of the most helpful forums ive been on so far.  i will report back once i make some progress on this thing.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2014, 12:33:14 PM »
Don't worry about initial total is critical, run the total as close to 36 as you can go before it pings(no vacuum), if you can't go any more than 27 total before it pings then you'll have to run better gas, either that or you're running very lean now??. Have you read the plugs after a good run??..
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2014, 12:41:23 PM »
FYI, you can run a simple manual choke cable easily to the 5200, I drove one like that for years.

Thinking the leaves on M II rear are different width than Pinto, could be wrong. Affects mounting pads. I had one around for a while, considering using it until looked at that. Rear won't be 8" if 6 or 4, rather the 6 3/4" one. Someone will jump in to correct me............ ......

BTW I made good use of a solenoid on the throttle that dropped the idle speed setting to completely closed throttle when key cut off. I had no pinging but the very dickens with after running (dieseling) after motor killed.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2014, 12:45:32 PM »
Those are called dash pots, I love them things..
Art
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Offline amc49

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2014, 12:51:34 PM »
Oh, and you took that rather well, most young people now will get all in your face over the slightest perceived slight, not that I was trying to, as I was not. And not that I know how old you are either. Just like to give credit where due. So hard to find people who don't freak out over every little thing now........... .....the people here onsite are by and large quite reserved I've noticed. I probably fly off the handle more than most of them (not my better side unfortunately).

Actually dashpot more accurately describes the rubber damper that just slows down throttle falloff for decel emissions or to stop stalling at throttle rolloff. But yes I have heard the term bandied about. How about 'sol-a-dash' or combination solenoid AND dashpot? Ain't heard that one in a while.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2014, 01:41:38 PM »
Well, I'm not quite that young, LOL... Well, I've always known them to be called dash pots even the dealers called them that, back in the 70's we ran a tunnelram on the Altered for a while and the damn thing would never shut down right away so we put one of them on end of problem, I used them on a lot of vehicles after that they work great..

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Dashpot/_/N-8ve9e?itemIdentifier=615831_0_0_
Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2014, 02:40:01 PM »
im actually only 27 years old.  nowhere near old enough to have enough experience or have gone through the learning experience most others on here probably have with the old american made stuff.  the pinto is my girl friend's car (that's why the name kerryann).  The car and all the technology used here was made long before we were born.  It's also the newest vehicle we own, and we have many cars and trucks.

Hope I havent come across the wrong way to anybody.  we got this holley 350 for $20 at a swap meet after reading peoples experiences with the swap on this forum.  wanted to see if i could make it work.  it's been a fun project so far.  fairly simple and purely mechanical which is what i like.  think i am on the right track now, just have to put the time in.  we work on this one outside and weather up here in new england has been awful, hopefully it warms up soon.

As far as the 8" rear, im sure it wont be a bolt in, but i dont mind chopping the mounts and moving them.  fabrication is another aspect of the hot rodding hobby i really enjoy.  supposed to end up with 3 mini stock 8" rears out of pintos and the one from the mustang II all for under $100 so i'll see what i can come up with from the pile.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2014, 03:05:36 PM »
8" rear end is a direct bolt in. Pinto backing plates / brake drums / drive shaft, all work as is. Couldn't be easyer.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2014, 03:16:27 PM »
good to hear on the 8"  i thought for sure we were going to have to cut the driveshaft or find a longer one.  what do you guys think of a 3.40 gear for the street?  we currently have a 3.08.  a friend of mine swears that that was the way to go on these cars and that he got the best mileage letting these little motors wind up into the power band a little more.  that was a long time back from the days of non ethanol fuel as well though.

Offline amc49

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2014, 06:21:45 PM »
The engine revs a good 500 rpm more at 60-70 mph than a V-8 and normal.

$20 carb huh? It becomes clear and I'da done that for only $20 too. Price rules (right Dianne? please put down that brick.......).

I used to strip and toss solenoids and dashpots off everything, I wish I had kept a few. Them things come in handy for specific issues and expensive as heck now. If you can even find the particular one you need.

Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2014, 02:58:10 PM »
got a new distributor coming in the morning.  destroyed the old distributor trying to get to the advance plates.  last screw to take the plate off that holds the pickup wouldnt budge.  tried using as much finesse as possible but it still cracked.  then snapped off both bolts for the vacuum advance.  hoping these remans will last more than a few months.

now im really confused.  the advance plate was on the 21R slot.  this would mean 42 degrees of mechanical advance correct?  the other slot is 16R.  says 21L and 16L on the bottom when you flip it over.  has one lighter weight pink spring and one heavier red spring.

How am i only seeing about 20-21 degrees advance on the 21R slot?  I have no idea what will come in my new distributor tomorrow but im saving this piece with 21 and 16 just in case.  Are these truly half the advance numbers?  just seems very strange that 21R gives me 20-21 degrees advance even though it should be giving me 42.  i forgot to mark my rotor positioning also so might have a fun time trying to get the new distributor in the right spot.

i also ordered the single vacuum distributor, not the dual vacuum.  not sure if that was the right thing to do or not.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2014, 07:42:09 PM »
You only need the single the dual was for smog, the long slot will give you less initial than the short one.
Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2014, 09:42:52 PM »
how will the long slot give less initial timing than the short?  i thought these slots were just limits on total timing.  and i thought the numbers stamped on them represented half of the number of total mechanical advance.  initial you set by turning the distributor until you get it where you want it correct?  then a 21R slot would allow the distributor to advance another 42 degrees (2x21).  Am I wrong here?  this is starting too seem too confusing. 

I also noticed there's not much support for springs for ford distributors.  the mr. gasket kit only gives you one set of springs.

Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2014, 11:21:44 PM »
ok i understand that distributor turns at half of crank rotation, so 21R should be giving me 42 degrees at the crank, just not sure why this wasn't happening.  springs were plenty stiff enough to pull weights back to the end of the slot.  any chance the springs would ever be too stiff to allow the full centrifugal advance?  since the stock distributor is now broke, i'll see what i can get with the reman.

can this type of ignition be statically timed with the ignition on?  i figure im going to have to get #1 at TDC and just get the rotor to point at #1 plug wire, then put a little advance in and see where im at.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2014, 07:38:33 AM »
how will the long slot give less initial timing than the short?  i thought these slots were just limits on total timing.  and i thought the numbers stamped on them represented half of the number of total mechanical advance.  initial you set by turning the distributor until you get it where you want it correct?  then a 21R slot would allow the distributor to advance another 42 degrees (2x21).  Am I wrong here?  this is starting too seem too confusing. 

I also noticed there's not much support for springs for ford distributors.  the mr. gasket kit only gives you one set of springs.
The total is the same regardless of the slot, it's the amount of travel. As an example say you have 36 total and 16 initial with a short slot, with the long slot you would still have 36 total but the initial may only be 12, if you widen the slot on the return side initial will drop more.
Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2014, 07:45:03 AM »
ok that is what i am after, with 36 total i dont want to have 15 initial like what happens currently.  there is also a thin bushing on the stop that i know i could have removed.  but its irrelevant now that i need to put in a new distributor.  im going to take the new one apart and verify whats in it first.

doing some more reading last night i found this interesting as well.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/crn-271e.pdf

these are instructions for the crane adjustable vacuum advance canister for fords.  heres the last paragraphs:

The curve you have achieved is designed to give you the best economy and performance.

In general, cars and trucks originally equipped with Ford Electronic distributors will be able to use a total advance of 45° to 55°. Some factors may limit the amount of total ignition timing your vehicle can use. These factors are increased compression, declining octane rating of gasoline, certain intake manifolds that will not tolerate increased ignition timing, lock-up torque converters, extremely heavy loads, and lean fuel mixture.

can you really get away with this much total on regular gas?


Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2014, 08:03:07 AM »
This has been explained in previous posts, lol, but you're getting the idea..

Every application is different you won't know until you try it, that's the reason for adjustability. BTW, nothing wrong with 15 initial.

Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2014, 08:48:42 AM »
crane also suggests sticking with stiffer advance springs due to the increasingly worse and worse gasoline.  i think some of my issue may be that i wasnt winding the car up to 4500 or so where they say full advance comes in with the very stiff spring.  may have been missing the boat altogether and actually had more total at high speed.  either way i will get it straightened out.  would like to see full advance a little sooner.  not sure i can go right to full advance by 2500 with regular gas.  if i get up to 15 or more initial i assume im going to have to greatly limit the vacuum advance to stop pinging.  id rather have a lower initial so that the overlap of vacuum advance puts it in a good spot.  we'll see, going to pick up new distributor now.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2014, 09:21:11 AM »
Like I said you won't know until you try it. Again, vacuum advance has nothing to do with the initial or total, the vacuum advances beyond the total at cruise when the vacuum is up, if it rattles at cruise(full vacuum)then adjust the canister so it won't pull all the way, you back it off a little at a time until the rattle goes away, your total is still going to be the same on the centrifugal.
Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2014, 09:57:36 AM »
i completely understand that, i didnt think the stock canister was adjustable with an allen wrench like the crane.  if it is that will be easy.  if not im not exactly sure yet the best way to modify the vacuum advance limit.

also, there is no easy way to find TDC on cylinder one without pulling valve cover is there?  im in the process of pulling the valve cover to watch the valves so i know im at the top of the intake stroke.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2014, 10:08:11 AM »
The stock canister is not adjustable, you'll have to get an aftermarket one. To bring it up on TDC pull #1 plug out, rotate the motor with your finger on the hole, when you feel pressure on your finger you're coming up on #1, now line up your timing marks at 0 on the tab, to find "absolute" TDC you'll need a piston stop.
Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2014, 11:04:25 AM »
got it on tdc by pulling valve cover and watching intake valve.  used a stop on piston but its pretty easy to see by eye down the hole when it stops.

first time distributor did not fit at all.  checked old distributor with my vernier and sure enough it was bigger around on the machined surface than the last one.  i removed o ring and carefull sanded id down to match the old distributor.  blew it off with air.  put o ring back on.  lubricated it with engine oil.  now it drops right down to where the gear and oil pump drive have to mesh and drop all the way down.  won't do it.  ive been carefully turning the oil pump drive with a long 5/16" ratched with long extension on it.  what a pain.  i assume this must be my last problem.  it can be frustrating to do on the chevys as well.  just so far cant get them to go together.  all the lengths are the same and gear pitch and number of teeth on the gears are the same.  i'll keep working on it but the other one still drops right in.

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2014, 11:32:01 AM »
That's no problem, if the the drive don't engage just rotate the motor when it lines up the distributor will drop down done deal, continue to TDC and set the rotor to #1..
Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #83 on: May 06, 2014, 02:09:02 PM »
getting the rotor at #1 is where i am having the problem.  i never thought id have such a hard time getting the distributor to drop down and engage the oil pump driveshaft.  i turn the shaft with a socket and a couple extensions over and over very slightly and just seem to get nowhere.  i got it in once with what seemed like the right advance and it would not run just backfire.  took it out and got it in with the rotor pointing right at #1 so that i can still pull some advance in it and it still will not run, just misfires and backfires.

the picture shows the first position which i assume had too much static advance.  the small black sharpie mark on the vacuum armature represents where #1 is when the cap is on.  can anyone tell me where the rotor should be facing when it drops down?

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2014, 02:37:24 PM »
I don't understand why you're having so much trouble, as I said before just put the distributor in  if it don't drop just rotate the motor until it drops. Number 1 can be where ever you want it to be, but right now put the cap on and put a mark on the side of the distributor at #1 wire now put the distributor in where you want it with the rotor pointing at the mark, when it drops down bring it up to TDC and line up the rotor with the mark and you're at 0*.. If it ends up too far one way or the other just pull it back out move it whichever way and do it again.
Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2014, 04:36:29 PM »
i don't follow.  there is a recess in the shaft that the plastic rotor falls into.  this keeps it in position.  i set the motor at TDC on cyl 1 and get the distributor to drop down.  now i can set the distributor so that the rotor points directly at #1 and it just still will not fire.

ive just tried 4 different consecutive teeth on the distributor gear, each advancing more.  and set the timing so the rotor points at #1 or slightly advanced.

it finally fired up but now it just surges and dies,  backfires every now and then.  i can keep it running by popping the throttle when it goes to die but it wont idle at all.  my gf tried to keep it running for me while i tried to see where timing was but i just cant get an accurate reading, its all over the place because of the surging.

can anyone PLEASE either tell me or take a picture of where their rotor and vacuum advancer are pointing on a car that is timed right and at TDC of cylinder 1??  ive never had this much trouble with a distributor before.

it is in the 16L slot and has a bushing on the stop, i figured that was a good place to start but im at a loss.  it has two light springs on it, the one that came out had one very heavy spring and one light, maybe theres an issue there.  i don't know what else to do.  just cleaned out the carburetor again and put in a new accelerator pump diaphragm.  made no difference.  carb worked fine before.  i just cant figure this distributor out

Offline 74 PintoWagon

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #86 on: May 06, 2014, 05:25:13 PM »
You're out of time, when the motor is at TDC(on compression) the rotor should be pointing at #1 plug wire.
Art
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Offline kerryann

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #87 on: May 06, 2014, 05:30:12 PM »
i have achieved this and it will not even start, just hesitates and backfires.  i can tell its out of time but ive followed every duraspark timing thread ive found on the internet.  It truly doesnt matter what tooth distributor is on as long as the rotor points to #1 wire?

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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #88 on: May 06, 2014, 05:54:26 PM »
Well, you have other things going on then, is the cam timed right, how bout the plug wires are they on the firing order?, it don't matter where the distributor is at as long as you're on TDC on compression and the rotor is pointing at #1, again everything else has to be timed right also.
Art
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Re: Flat spot with Holley 350 carb
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2014, 06:11:17 PM »
ive tried every position imaginable, just wont work.  i have finally noticed that when i turn the distributor counterclockwi se spark cuts out.  it doesnt appear to be a loose wire going to the distributor, im not sure why its doing that.  getting ready to make the parts store take this distributor back.  i dont know how cam timing or anything could have went out of adjustment considering the car ran fine 3 days ago.  just doesnt make any sense.  going to look for a distributor out of a used vehicle i guess so i know that it works.