Topic: 5.0L vs. 2.3L Turbo

[ctpinto]

I know this has been a big debate for an engine upgrade. I always thought that stock these two motors had close performance, 2.3 Turbo just had better fuel mileage and easier to install. But I went on the government page for fuel mileage ratings and they same those two engines were much closer than i thought. What's is the real benefits from the turbo or the 302? I'm trying to decide which way to go. Thanks.

[r4pinto]

If this tells you anything a turbo Pinto can smoke a 302 Pinto. They weigh less & have more horsepower than a standard 4 cylinder. The normal Pinto 2.3 generally only has about 80 to 90 HP. I don't know the specs for a 2.3 turbo but if it is anything like the Chrysler 2.3 turbo it's probably around 150 or so.

[Bigtimmay]

My opinion-
5.0-Weak block cant hold real amounts of power unless you wanna buy a aftermarket block.
2.3-Extremely strong block.
 
5.0-tons of bolt on parts
2.3-Some bolt on parts but not as many
 
5.0-Heavy
2.3-Light
 
As for the HP of each you can make a 2.3 pull just as much power as a 5.0 easily actually back when the svo was being produced the 2.3 turbo actually made more HP then the V8 cars.
 
Me personally i wouldn't drop a V8 in unless its a LSX or the new 5.0! But if your really wanting a v8 atleast use a 351w ya its a little bigger width wise but the block isn't a boat anchor.
 
Oh and as for hp output of a stock 2.3 turbo well it depends on which one you get. The older 83-86 TC had a better turbo but since they weren't intercooled they produced less HP around 145 or so, But the 87-88 TC they were intercooled and the autos produced 150 but the 5 speeds where around 190. then you have the 84-85 svo they produced around 175. The 85.5 svo put out 205 and the 86 svo put out 200hp.
 
I love my 2.3t i wouldn't have it any other way. I love beating a v8 and the when they asks what its got under the hood i get to tell them a Lil old 4cylinder.

[ctpinto]

Well that's pretty convincing for the 2.3t. My question now is how can you build the 2.3 without going into big $$$. I've worked on a 60's and a 70's mustang with all carbureted motors but I'm not in that price range, plus I like the idea of a small car with a big attitude. Do the 2.3 have computers in them (something i've never worked with) and if so, can you up performance through the computer (aka chip)? What should I run for rear end without killing my fuel mileage? What fuel mileage are you guys getting with your turbos? I'm already using the t5 tranny with my stock 2.3. Why would a non-intercooled engine be a better turbo? And what happened between 85.5 and 86 that made ford drop its hp? Sorry for asking so many questions. I'm younger and I was giving my grandma's ride literally.

[rkk]

I was like you just dealt with carbs on motors and was very skeptical about the whole fuel injection thing.  But I finally But there was so much help on this forum on how to do the swap I went with the turbo motor.  I am so glad I did.  The car runs great, I feel very comfortable with the whole computer thing the fuel injection and the whole process.  I learned a great deal.  My car now runs high 12's with very little done to it.  Just a little more boost, gears and some tuning.  If you want to go the easy route with the wiring harness there are people that sell plug and play harnesses for this swap. My vote go with the turbo and I was always a V8 guy.

[Bigtimmay]

Well that's pretty convincing for the 2.3t. My question now is how can you build the 2.3 without going into big $$$. I've worked on a 60's and a 70's mustang with all carbureted motors but I'm not in that price range, plus I like the idea of a small car with a big attitude. Do the 2.3 have computers in them (something i've never worked with) and if so, can you up performance through the computer (aka chip)? What should I run for rear end without killing my fuel mileage? What fuel mileage are you guys getting with your turbos? I'm already using the t5 tranny with my stock 2.3. Why would a non-intercooled engine be a better turbo? And what happened between 85.5 and 86 that made ford drop its hp? Sorry for asking so many questions. I'm younger and I was giving my grandma's ride literally.

Just by putting a 3 inch exhaust on a 2.3T, A Manual boost controller, 255 fuel pump (best to buy this when you do the swap), And a adjustable FPR. you can up the boost some and the Fuel pressure a little bit and i guarantee to would be surprised at how just those few mods push the power up alot and with how little our cars weight the power to weight is crazy.
 
the new 2.3t are fuel injected and yes they run a computer its a fairly easy swap.Like RKK said theres lots of help here and on turboford on the swap. The best harness to use is a merkur xr4ti harness (what i used in my bobcat) unless you wanna buy a new on from like the detailzone which is a brandnew plug and play harness.
 
they make chips so you can re-tune the stock ecu quarterhorse is a good one but unless your gunna go way into the mods (aka bigger turbo 20  psi of boost pretty much 300+ hp range) you Can get away without this but it does help alot.These motors can even be switched over to speed density thanks to SVOjohn and his work and writing all the code to do it.Lots of good reading on all of this over on turboford.
 
My motor and trans came out of a 88TC it had 3.55 rear gears and a T5 i got around 20-25 mpg unless i was on it hard.But that was a car that almost weighs double what my bobcat weighs.
 
The non intercooled/SVOs have a garret T3 turbo that had a .60a/r cold side and depending on what year of car they could have a .48or.63 a/r hot side the .63 is the biggest and would take a Lil longer to spool but can hold it alot higher in the rpm range.
The 87-88 intercooled turbocoupes used a Borgwarner IHI turbo which is smaller then the garret cause they wanted it to spool faster but it drops off in the rpm range alot faster.  Plus max psi on this turbo is around 18psi anything past that is gunna be outta the usable range both versions of the T3 can go to 22psi maybe a Lil more.
 
Mostly the reason for the Hp drop between 85.5 and 86 was just a Lil tuning difference in the ecu due to lower octane fuel.

[ctpinto]

So which would be better for a street turbo, a faster spool or a higher rpms? Are you keeping your stock rear end in your bobcat? Will you be doing any modifications with the fuel pump for better acceleration? Will those two harness' plug into any of the 2.3t's from the tbird? Have you done any radiator work ? I've switched body panels on my '80 sedan to 72 but the length of the radiator doesn't allow me to bolt on the front valence. Is there a smaller radiator that would still cool the 2.3t?

[8 BALL]

I'M JUST STARTING OUT ALSO. I HAVE A 80 PINTO AND AN 88 TURBO T BIRD.I'M GETTING READY TO DO THE SWAP AND HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS.1 WILL THE TRANSMISSION OUT OF THE T BIRD HIT THE FLOORBOARD ON THE PINTO LIKE THE MUSTANG TRANNIES DO? 2.WHERE CAN I GET THE PLUG AND PLAY HARNESS? 3.WILL AN EXTERNAL ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP WORK?

[Bigtimmay]

which turbos better? well thats a personal prefrence me personally im gunna go with the higher in the rpm range it because my car will be raced and street driven and i plan on launching it at higher rpm ranges.
 
im going to be installing the 8.8 with disc brakes outta my donor TC into my bobcat so ill still have 3.55 gears.
 
Im gunna install a fuel cell with a rear sump and run a inline 255 walboro should be sufficent enough all the way to 400 hp easy. Later on ill prolly swap in SS braided fuel lines and a new inline adjustable FPR and a new fuel rail but that will be later on.
 
The detail zone one harness from what i understand you tell them what year car the motors from and they wiring it up for that years ecu. The merkur harness like i have in my car the worste youll have to do is re-pin a few wires on the ecu plug and add a few wires for stuff like the ACT senor.
 
I have a factory a/c radiator it will be fine for now till i buy a custom aluminum one.ID look into maybe some newer volvo radiators or somthing like that maybe a honda radiator?

[Bigtimmay]

I'M JUST STARTING OUT ALSO. I HAVE A 80 PINTO AND AN 88 TURBO T BIRD.I'M GETTING READY TO DO THE SWAP AND HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS.1 WILL THE TRANSMISSION OUT OF THE T BIRD HIT THE FLOORBOARD ON THE PINTO LIKE THE MUSTANG TRANNIES DO? 2.WHERE CAN I GET THE PLUG AND PLAY HARNESS? 3.WILL AN EXTERNAL ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP WORK?

 
T5 or auto trans? If your talking about the t5trans i have a mustang 2.3 bellhousing and a 88 T5 trans bolted into my bobcat right now. The only thing that hit was the shifter i had to cut a prolly 2 inch piece of metal in the front of the shifter hole out to clear it. Other then that i used the rubber mount that came in the TC and welded a piece of steel plate to the back of the original trans crossmember and drilled holes in it and bolted it all together everthing clears with no issues.
 
http://www.thedetailzone.com/Ford%20Replacement%20Harnesses.htm
 
External Fuel pump is what I'm gunna use in mine with a rear sump fuel cell. http://www.jdsperformance.com/index.asp?initemuid=432&fcmd=item&inmake=0 thats the fuel pump I'm using.

[8 BALL]

THANKS FOR THE INFO BIGTIMMAY,ON YOURS DID YOU LEAVE IT CABLE CLUTCH OR DID YOU CHANGE TO HYDRAULIC?

[Bigtimmay]

Mines Cable i was going to use hydraulic but it would have been tons of work. Im very happy with the cable clutch too its not too stiff but its not just a super soft pedal like most hydraulic setups are.

[ctpinto]

so could i just swap the t3 turbo onto a 87-88 tbird motor? where do you find the merkur harness? and what did the 8.8 with discs come out of? Is it the five lug stang pattern? Thanks a bunch.
Will

[Bigtimmay]

the T3 turbo can be bolted onto the 87-88 motor but some t3s where watercooled and some werent so you might have to block off the water lines that went to the IHI originally depending on which you get.
 
85-89 Merkur Xr4ti is where the harness comes from, Most people like this harness cause its not tied into everything else like the others are since the car was built out of the country then shipped here and ford dropped the engine harness in and the motor.
 
My 8.8 is 4 lug same bolt pattern as the pinto/bobcat is originally its out of 87-88 turbocoupe, Auto cars had 3.73 gears and manuals had 3.55 gears.
 
if your goin 5 lug the 94-98 mustang rear end could be used prolly or even a 95 and up explorer rear end?

[Cheeseliner]

CT, i had a nice 302 with the GT40S heads on it, nice cam Holley and all the cosmetics bolted up to a strong C4 with a stall and a kit (simple tweekin under the valve body) all ready to drop into my 75. Then i came across my 2.3T. It has about as many "extra options" that the SBF does- either just depends on your wallet. The biggest decision for me to sell the 302 and go with the 2.3 was the ease of install AND the weight. The V-8 weighs about 240lbs more than the 2.3 and was (with the inner cooler) similar (just a few less) than the 302. My problem now lies with the tranny. The 2.3T that i have is bolted to a T5 tranny (which i don't mind using, if i could find the clutch pedal) or go with the C4 that i have (the car is originally a C3 auto). I did find that Canfeild out of Colorado sell an adaptor plate for the 2.3 to C4 for about $175 - and since i cant find a stock 74 2.3 to C4 bellhousing, OR clutch pedals, that's probably the way I'm going to go. Good luck on your project. 8, Big, RKK, and Fred as well as others in here are a great help! Take care. Kenny

[rkk]

Just got to throw a plug in for Joe Morgan (turbo Joe). I got my harness from him.  He is exceptional with customer service and guided me throuugh the whole process.  His Turbo Pinto runs 10 flats with a c4 and if you want to know anything about 2.3 turbo engines he is the man.  You can googgle turbo Joe and you should be able to find his website.  When I got my harness from him it was probably a 20 minute install just plug it in and go.  If you don't unsderstand he will even give you his cell number to help guide you through it.  Loves to talk cars great guy. It is a little pricey at about $700.

[rkk]

Here is the link for Turbo Joe
 
http://www.turbojoe.com/wireharness.html

[Pinto Pro]

I will be going the opposite way in the near future. My car has a 400+ HP turbo 2.3, and I will be replacing it with a small block V8.
 
A small block V8 equipped with aluminum heads and other light weight components can come within a couple pounds of a 4 cyl.

[Pinturbo75]

hey cheeseliner,,,,, just a bit of info you might not know..... if you use the adapter and go v8 c4 tranny, you have to have the end of the crankshaft milled out to fit the torque convertor nub into it or you will be stuck....id look for a bellfor a 2.3 if i were you and save the hassle.... it also makes for routing the exhaust much harder with the adaptor..... im runnin g one right now so i speak from experience.... .

[8 BALL]

I checked out the link to Turbo Joe and thats a nice harness but a little out of my budget for right now. Is there a simple diagram for useing the harness out of the 88 T bird?

[Bigtimmay]

http://www.rothfam.com/svo/reference/88Thunderbird.pdf Thats the engine wiring when using a 88 TC harness there alot of stuff that gets removed cause its not need like the crap for the adjustable struts and all that.

[8 BALL]

Thank Bigtimmay you are the man!

[Wittsend]

I've done the 2.3T in a 73 wagon.   While I can't account for how easy the Murkur harness is, I can tell you how difficult the 88 Turbo Coupe harness is.  My goal was actually to avoid issues and I elected to retain the TC fuse box as well.  Basically the Pinto wiring and the 2.3T wiring were separate entities.  My setup was somewhat complicated because I also used the TC steering column (and associated wiring). Additionally I used the TC tach adapting it to the Pinto gauge cluster.

That 88 TC harness is a nightmare. I spent days dissecting out the what I "thought" I needed.  I still have 15 or so wires in limbo.  I don't think I need them..., but I'm not sure.  Yes, the car runs (started on the first key turn) but I have issues with it running right.  It runs decent with the spout removed, but plug it in and the car misses all over the place.  Even with it out right about 2,500 RPM I get a miss. I swapped out O2 sensors, TPS, VAM's, computers even the relay box to no avail.

You also mentioned about the trans.  I just reversed the mount (C-4 Auto) and cut slots. The T-5 manual bolted in all be it near the very end of the mount.  Let me add that I originally had a 2.0, C-4 with a 6-3/4" rear. I went to a T-5 with a 8" rear. In one of those, "Wow..., did something actually go right" moments, the original driveshaft fit perfectly!!!

I've included:
 a picture of of the harness just to give you a "flavor" of the nightmare.
 a picture of the installed harness
 a picture of the tach
 a picture of the trans mount
Tom

[71pintoracer]

Why in the crap would anyone want to swap in a V8 when a turbo swap is so easy??!!  :lol:   And there are so many cheap T-Birds and Merkurs out there to be had! 
To be fair, I really wanted to go with the turbo 4 but the V8 just kinda fell into my lap, and the turbo cars are not so plentiful (or cheap) around here and you are better off if you have the doner car.
However, when I get plenty of time and money,( ) I think I will put a turbo in the '71 and put the V8 in my '77 cruiser.
For now though, I'm happy with the kick-a$$ roar of the V8, smokin the tires through 3 gears, gettin' it sideways at the tap of the throttle, and 12.07 on street tires with a mild roller cam late model 5.0 ain't too shabby! 

[Wittsend]

>>>and the turbo cars are not so plentiful (or cheap) around here<<<

I hear you. I live in Southern California and the local Pick A Part receives cars from the 2nd largest city in the nation (L.A.).  That said, I go every month to the 50% off sale and I haven't seen a Turbo Coupe in about a year. The same for a Merkur. There is even a second self serve yard (independent) in the area and I have not seen either there in the same time frame.

I started my Turbo Pinto project back in 2007.  Over the next year and a half I'd find 5 Turbo Coupes and a few Merkurs nearly every time I hit the yards. Then, about the start of 2009 they completely disappeared. It happened that fast.  There have been flukes. I hadn't seen a Merkur in over a year and a half. Then in late 2010 I was in a yard in Orange County (CA, not "Chopperland" NY). Wouldn't you know there were 5 of them. But that is rare. VERY rare.

At least in the greater L.A. area the clock seems to be ticking fast for Turbo Pinto donor parts. Last time I found a Turbo Coupe I snagged the turbo, LA-2 computer, the big VAM and anything else of value.

Tom

[Cheeseliner]

Thanks Pinturbo. I think ill save a little longer and get the steel bellhousing from Quicktime. I have one other place here close that is looking for a factory one, if he doesn't have it, then ill take the plunge! Thanks. K

[Pinstang74]

After playing with my ole 74 Pinstang for years I've come to believe that there is still no substitute for the good ole cubic inches . Yea ,the 2.3 turbo even with all the goodies is working pretty hard. I had a hopped up 74 2.3L with turbo,50/50 water injection and an 8 inch rear end from 65  Mustang . Even stuffed a 351C/ C-4  and found that still horse power still costs Money in the form of fuel. If you want to go fast ,you'll pay for it in one way or another.
        As far as fun and cost, I was able to get an 89 EFI 2.3L Ford Stang and T-5 trans and replaced all the wiring and tech front to rear into my ole 74 Pinto. I'll have to say it became a real pleasure to play with. The fuel cost was good, the performace was great ( same 2.3L that it had new except it was a better built engine ) same wieght but better HP. It had all the upgrades of an 89 stang with safety features like the inerticia fuel shutoff. The cold starts were great and with the EFI the trips to the mountains was not a problem.
Best part is that everything fit like it was made that way.