Topic: 2.3t swap questions

[uncleamin]

I am getting ready to attempt the 2.3t swap into my 79' sedan and I have a few questions. I'm new to all of this so please excuse any dumb questions. I have an 8UA computer from an auto 88' TC. As I was telling Bill, I really want to run a FMIC. Is this going to be compatible and if so what kind of front mount should I put in there? Thanks. - Amin

[Gaslight]

Amin,

  The intercooler really won't matter to the ECU.  The only way it would is if you really muzzled up for a high dollar unit and the intake charge would cool a lot.  The intercoooler will really just take you back to ambient temperature or at least as close as it can to it.  Some do it better than others.  But the ECU has the ability to more than handle anything differences the intercooler could cause.

Jake

[77turbopinto]

Amin,

  The intercooler really won't matter to the ECU...  ...the ECU has the ability to more than handle anything differences the intercooler could cause.

Jake

Yes, the ECU/computer will make some adjustments, but some are not able to handle them as well as others. I know this from my FMIC install, the PC1 (from a non-I/C car) had a hard time with it, mostly on very light accel/decel or WOT. All was great before the FMIC and again after I installed the big VAM and LA2 (less the minor backfiring it does due to a BOV; should get better when I install the BPV). If the computer is from a car with an I/C then you NEED to run an I/C as well as the injectors and VAM from that same car as a matched set UNLESS you are able to do the tuning yourself (adjust the VAM spring tention, install a adjustable FPR,...). You can get away with an I/C in almost any set-up, it just might be quirky like mine was.

You should have the big VAM, brown tops, and I/C and should be go to go for a FMIC. Are you putting the T/C tranny in the Pinto? Rumor has it that the comp.s for the A/T cars are mild compared to the LA2/3. Ford knew the trannies were junk and de-tuned the cars to go easy on them. You can install a LA3 (might need re-pinning) and use the stock Pinto A/T; I ran the PC1.

Find a Merkur or 86 T/C harness, they are much easier to work with!!

IMHO: There are no easy to install FMIC's for Pinto's. Mine took a bunch of work to get in behind the grille and keep the hood latch support intact to the bottom of the rad. support (safety).

http://www.fordpinto.com/smf/index.php?topic=5184.0

Bill

[Gaslight]

Bill,

  Did you yse a different diameter inlet and outlet on your intercooler than the throttle body diameter?  The ECU really should not have any problem with an intercooler addition.  I have done a dozen intercooler installtions on ECU cars that never had intercoolers and some that never even had turbos on them with no issues.  Using a cheap intercooler that cannot flow the correct psi is a problem.  Which BOV are you using?  I use the HKS SSQBOV on just about everything.  I can get the backfiring issue but with a little spring adjusting it will usually disappear.

Jake

[77turbopinto]

As mentioned in the thread, it is a stock T/C I/C, with the flow going in the correct direction.

I only did one I/C install into a non-I/C set-up and I did have some, be them minor, problems that went away with the la2/big VAM swap. Again, all was well before the I/C, and I did nothing else.

The ECU in a metered air system is designed for a certain amount of air to be between the VAM and the engine at any given time, and for that air to be within a certain temp. range (this is why it will backfire with a BOV; it thinks there is more air in the system than there is, so it still is adding fuel for half a second or so). The la2 (one of the more agressive ones) and others that are made for 'I/C' cars are made to work with the lower intake air temps that an I/C will make (another reason why they added the IAC sensor). This is why you SHOULD run an I/C with a ECU made for one; you will be more likely to get detonation if you don't. For that same reason, you are much better off to change to an "I/C" ECU when you install an I/C (more aggressive timing and fuel curves) to take more advantage of the cooler air temp.


Ford was OVER careful with tuning as they did not want to spend money on warrentying engines so non I/C ECUs are very "MILD". That detail about them keeps them from preforming past a certain point with an I/C.

I am using the generic Bosch BPV set up as a BOV with a check valve (see pic) for now. It has never been an issue.

What spring are you talking about, BOV or VAM? If it is the BOV then you are letting less air out when it does open?

Bill

[Gaslight]

Bill,

  The HKS SSBOV is to my knowledge the only one on the market where the intake charge actually hold the valve shut.  So the higher the psi the more it is forced to seal shut.  There is an adjustment screw on the outside of the BOV that allows you to set tension on the actuator.  So you can have a faster or a slower opening and closing.

Jake

[77turbopinto]

That's what I thought you were talking about, but the VAM can be tinkered with too. The only bad part is if you adjust the BOV too much it is like not having one at all. At lower boost levels that is not the worst thing, but at higher levels it can be very bad very quickly.

What ECU's have you used? Have they all been metered air systems? Ford or others?

Bill

[Gaslight]

It just controls the speed of the opening and closing.  It does not make it harder to open or close.  I have used just about every Toyota ECU you can think of.  I have also run most of the GM ecu's, Suburu some Nissan.  I am jsut now atarting to play with the Ford stuff.  I do a lot of work with Innovative Turbo and a few other places locally as far as fab work.

Jake

[77turbopinto]

Yes, if it controls the speed (or time, pressure and amount of opening), it controls how much air can flow out and how much reduction in pressure will occur. Again, you can adjust it to release a minimum amount of air and keep the momentary rich condition to a minimum, but at the cost of un-spooling (power) and possible turbo damage depending on boost levels.

Were any of your systems metered air?

Bill

[Gaslight]

No it only controls how fast it opens and closes.  No matter the pressure it will got to full open and full close at 0 manifold pressure.  The HKS website has a pretty good write up on it.  I have had a 88 turbo Supra on meter air and a 85.  The 88 finally got converted to speed density and the 85 still is air meter with a AFM.

Jake

[77turbopinto]

No it only controls how fast it opens and closes...

If it is only open for a very short period of time anyway (during shifting), then opening/closing speeds will dictate how much air will be allowed to pass in that same time.

Hypothetical: Lets say that it can be set to open or close fully in .5 seconds VS. .25 seconds, and that it will only be open, or in the process of opening or closing for 2 seconds total. That would mean that it would be FULLY open for 1 second VS. 1.5 seconds. Is that a small difference in air? Yes, maybe, but it is a difference, and a big one when it comes to fuel mixture for a metered air system with a BOV.

With an intake system of 2" to 3" pipes sometimes more than 6' long, plus an I/C, there is a lot of volume trying to escape out a relatively small opening to start with. The opening speed, time, size, and amount of that opening will effect the amount of air that can pass though. 

Getting back to the original question, the 8AU is designed for an I/C, big VAM, and brown tops, and is set up to run the L.U.T.C. so you should be fine (VS. other Ford ECU's) DEPENDING on the set-up you want. If you are running a standard tranny, or don't care about the locking torque converter, go with a LA2, LA3 or PE. BTW: Look at the HP rating for the cars that came with these.

Bill

[Gaslight]

Bill,

  Actually since fuel mixture is handled by the injectors and controlled by the throttle position sensor when you take your foot off the gas to shift there is no fuel mixing going on.  Also the BOV vents air with the throttle body closed.  Fuel mixture really does not enter into this.  All my experience and work that I have done shows adding an intercooler properly and not a cheap Chinese unit off of ebay will have no effect outside the parameters of what just about any ECU can handle.  Using your theory on this an intercooler can create an air temperature variance beyond any altitude change an automobile can see while driving down the road.  That just is not possible.

Jake

[77turbopinto]

Bill,

  Actually since fuel mixture is handled by the injectors and controlled by the throttle position sensor when you take your foot off the gas to shift there is no fuel mixing going on.  Also the BOV vents air with the throttle body closed.  Fuel mixture really does not enter into this...

IF that were true, WHY will it backfire with a BOV??

BTW: Who mentioned altitude? What "intercooler theory"??

ECU's are PRE-PROGRAMED to run within certian perameters using specific sensors and parts to control an engine to produce "X" amount of power. IF all of them can handle anything, ALL ECU's would be the same; they are not.

Bill

[Gaslight]

Just got done about a month ago tracking this similar problem down on a MKIV Supra.  After switching to several different BOV the owner gave up.  He had two problems.  His TPS sensor was malfunctioning in the upper range and he had a small air leak on the connection between the surge tank and the lower manifold.  The air leak only happened at around 14 psi and above.  The IAT sensor malfunctioning somewhere in its operating range is another cause.  A BOV can also cause the problem if it is leaking or not working properly.  But the intercooler does not even enter into the top 10 reasons for a back fire unless it is also leaking.

  You keep bringing up intercooler theory when you mention that an ECU cannot compensate for the air temps created by an intercooler addition.  At least that is what I keep getting out of what you are typing.  Intercooler theory is the easiest way to talk about that.  Since an air to air intercooler does not have the ability to cool a charge below ambient air temp to any real degree.  So what you keep saying is that an intercooler addition has to be done with an ECU that is used to seeing an intercooler.  The ECU does not care or know that there is an intercooler there.

Jake

[77turbopinto]

…The IAT sensor malfunctioning somewhere in its operating range is another cause... 

Not all ECUs are even set-up for them the same.

…the intercooler does not even enter into the top 10 reasons for a back fire unless it is also leaking…

I did not say it would, I said a BOV does.

  …You keep bringing up intercooler theory when you mention that an ECU cannot compensate for the air temps created by an intercooler addition… 

No, you did:

...The intercooler really won't matter to the ECU.  The only way it would is if you really muzzled up for a high dollar unit and the intake charge would cool a lot. 

I did NOT say that an ECU can't handle the air temps., what I said is that there are different ECU's, some are set up more agressivly to better use the cooler air and that some don't like the extra volume that an I/C puts in the system and it might run a little "quirky".

…an air to air intercooler does not have the ability to cool a charge below ambient air temp to any real degree…

It CAN’T cool to a temp. below the temp. of the air going though it, and I never implied it could. (I do like the pun)

...what you keep saying is that an intercooler addition has to be done with an ECU that is used to seeing an intercooler... 

No, I said this:

...If the computer is from a car with an I/C then you NEED to run an I/C...

....you SHOULD run an I/C with a ECU made for one; you will be more likely to get detonation if you don't. For that same reason, you are much better off to change to an "I/C" ECU when you install an I/C (more aggressive timing and fuel curves) to take more advantage of the cooler air temp...

...You can get away with an I/C in almost any set-up, it just might be quirky like mine was...

...there are different ECU's, some are set up more agressivly to better use the cooler air and that some don't like the extra volume that an I/C puts in the system and it might run a little "quirky".

Please review my posts.

Bill
 

[Gaslight]

I have read them.  Air volume....got it.  I had planned on typing a whole post air trying to show air pressure and how it affects air temps and how volume does not come into play but never mind.  I going back to work. 

Continue on.

Jake