Topic: A few N/A HP questions... (Read 912 times)

Pale Roader · « **on:** February 04, 2010, 08:49:34 AM »

Well, ever since ditching the V8 idea for the time being (i need a good on gas car, well... i need a good on gas car thats fun) i've been thinking a lot about what to do with 4 cylinders. I've come up with a couple gems, but first, i need some perspective, hopefully someone here can help me out.

What would it take to get an honest 200-240HP out ov a naturally aspirated 2.3, WITHOUT increasing the displacement beyond the usual rebuild overbore? OR using race gas? (91 octane limit) With the aftermarket available for these things i know its possible, or more even, and i know it will have to rev, but at what cost? Thats the number stuck in my head right now. Are we talking aftermarket head? crank (for strength)? block? or can this level be achieved with (heavily) modified stock-ish long-block parts? I assume it would need an aftermarket manifold, cam, internals, induction and exhaust, maybe picking the best stock head for porting and going to town with the die-grinder, etc.

How driveable (in a 5spd stick car) would such a creature be on the street? for a commuter (yes, i said it)? How reliable?

(heh heh...) And what kind ov gas mileage would it get when NOT driving like a tool...?.??

These are serious questions. I was looking at just simple bolt-ons (no cam, no big ports, no honkin' carb, etc.) for an easy 120-140HP daily driver type car, but then something else popped into my head and wont leave. I dont know enough about the serious HP 2.3, but some here do.

Pale Roader · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2010, 08:56:15 AM »

I should also add that i know how cheap stroking a 2.3 can be, or how much easier boost or a V8 can be to live with than a N/A screamer. Just looking for some perspective on the 2.3's N/A capabilities and costs.

pintokite · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2010, 12:58:46 PM »

try racerwalsh.com they have a 5 page tech. sheet on building a 2.0 and 2.3 . I've used some of their info. just a suggestion.

72pair · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2010, 04:53:12 PM »

The jump from 140hp to over 200hp is a serious one. You'll need high compression, large cam specs, well worked cylinder head, induction, and exhaust. Really not a streetable package considering the rpm range you'll have. Check out Esslinger Racings crate engines. They put out a little over 200hp for a starting price of $7499. Turbo or v-8 is starting to sound better eh. My $0.02. JT

Pale Roader · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2010, 05:24:47 AM »

I've been to both sites and dont find a lot ov info specific to my query. But from there and a few (many) other threads about this i gain gather that i'm looking at a heavily modified stock head, big cam, aftermarket internals (but a stock crank?), intake, carb, good header, race exhaust, hot ignition, big compression, etc.

Streetable remains, as always, in the opinion ov the driver. But i guess this idea (a 200-240HP N/A 2.3) would be about in the same range ov characteristic s as say a 500-600HP 350 V8...?? So i guess how easy it would be to live with would have a lot to do with the amount ov aftermarket technology available for it. One could build a pretty damn serious LS1 350 and still have a very streetable engine, but with an AMC 360? Not so much. I figured the aftermarket for the 2.3 was pretty vast, but it seems its still mostly in the realm ov old-school technology, or all race.

Sounds like it would be a very impressive build to get 200HP from a stock size 2.3 and still see SOME kind ov mileage or driveability. Probably impossible to get 240 without race gas or stroker?

What about thinking outside the box (if i was still hung up on this idea)? like that Volvo DOHC head? Nothin' like some modern tech to change the parameters. Is there a good aftermarket head that isn't a full race piece? Something like the nicer entry level street heads for the V8's...?? Something with a more modern port/chamber design...??

wedge446 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2010, 05:37:38 AM »

You could always nitrous. Build it with good parts, forged pistons, good rods/bolts and with good timing control you`ll have a very streetable engine with the added HP at a flip of a switch.

pintosopher · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2010, 10:14:26 AM »

Quote from: Pale Roader on February 05, 2010, 05:24:47 AM

I've been to both sites and dont find a lot ov info specific to my query. But from there and a few (many) other threads about this i gain gather that i'm looking at a heavily modified stock head, big cam, aftermarket internals (but a stock crank?), intake, carb, good header, race exhaust, hot ignition, big compression, etc.

Streetable remains, as always, in the opinion ov the driver. But i guess this idea (a 200-240HP N/A 2.3) would be about in the same range ov characteristic s as say a 500-600HP 350 V8...?? So i guess how easy it would be to live with would have a lot to do with the amount ov aftermarket technology available for it. One could build a pretty damn serious LS1 350 and still have a very streetable engine, but with an AMC 360? Not so much. I figured the aftermarket for the 2.3 was pretty vast, but it seems its still mostly in the realm ov old-school technology, or all race.

Sounds like it would be a very impressive build to get 200HP from a stock size 2.3 and still see SOME kind ov mileage or driveability. Probably impossible to get 240 without race gas or stroker?

What about thinking outside the box (if i was still hung up on this idea)? like that Volvo DOHC head? Nothin' like some modern tech to change the parameters. Is there a good aftermarket head that isn't a full race piece? Something like the nicer entry level street heads for the V8's...?? Something with a more modern port/chamber design...??

I've weighed in on this topic before, and it seems we get nowhere! The Lima 2.3l isn't going to make 200 HP N/A unless there is some serious internal mods to deal with RPM and Stresses from harmonics. Then you have to deal with Flow design of the Heads out there. Aftermarket EFi would clean up the driveability and add HP & Cost! There is no variable valve timing to enhance the range of power- This isn't V-Tec!
Look at the Acura Integra type R, BMW E-30 M3 and you are looking at a 10K dollar motor when new to the marketplace years ago.
A Cossie YB twin cam ford 2.0L is over $8 grand without much of the ancillaries to install. It will bolt right up to the stock 2.0L motor mounts, and trans bell housing. But these are rare in the states.
Even the "poor mans " twin cam Aka Ford Duratec 2.3 has some serious cash outlays to make 200 N/A HP. And you still have to make up a Sump for the Pinto crossmember issue.
Makes that turbo swap or V8 Look much more affordable, Eh?
We get what we pay for, and that's the Bottom line!

Pintosopher .. Reality Bites!

71pintoracer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2010, 07:20:53 PM »

I agree with pintosopher, 200+ hp is a stretch without a turbo. I'm not sure how much hp my 2.0 had, it had forged internals, 2.3 rods, ported head w/ big valves, hot cam, 4 barrel holley, mallory unilite AND nitrous. Maybe 200? But drivable? Not really. The cam had a lot of lope to it and even with a 4 speed it was a pain to drive in slow traffic.
My V8 is an '89 5.0 HO with the roller cam, runs on 89 octane, doesn't overheat, idles nice and smooth and will turn the car sideways in second gear.
My .02, 4cyl + turbo = 200 streetable hp. (and decent gas mileage)
Stock V8, 250-300 streetable hp and a blast to drive!! (gas mileage, mmmm, not so good! Can't keep my dang foot off the floor!!)

Pale Roader · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2010, 08:38:33 AM »

Heh... you guys have me a bit wrong on this. I'm NOT thinking ov doing this myself, i was just looking for some input on the N/A potential (efficiency) ov these engines. I've been talking to Honda guys and was just wondering how the lil' (or "big" rather) 2.3 stacks up. My Pinto is going to be a stock cammed, stock headed 2.3, with custom headers, race exhaust, bigger carb, maybe an intake, maybe a chopped head (i'll clean up the ports if i do this), maybe a stock roller, etc. Nothing i cant find at a swap meat for cheap. Should give me 120-140HP depending on how far i go. But i wont stick a big cam, big carb, or hog the head, or do anything that will burn a lot more gas. Plus a T5, plus some gears, minus a LOT ov weight, and it should be fun and commute me 100 miles a day with ease.

But then i keep seeing my neighbor's Civic Si... with its 2L I4 making 197 N/A HP stock... and streetable... and probably VERY good on gas (even in that 3000lb car)... and i get to wondering.

Was just wondering if a guy COULD even begin to replicate this feat with a 2.3 base. Like i said, i've always known there was a solid aftermarket for the 2.3, but if its predominantly a racing one, then streetability flies out the window. For instance, there is a pretty decent aftermarket for the big block Dodge now, LOTS ov options for lots ov different directions, but still nothing much for truly efficient N/A power. Small block chevy on the other hand... well, if you can dream it, its probably available.

I should have stated that this is a purely theoretical question. Well, i thought i did, but i type so much it mighta got lost... heh heh... But you answered my question anyways. Any other thoughts...??

Pinto Pro · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2010, 09:47:55 PM »

ov.....is spelled "of"

hellfirejim · « **Reply #10 on:** February 07, 2010, 11:09:59 AM »

it is a matter of expectations. For a good daily commute motor with good response around 140/150 hp is not to unusual and is doable. Combined with a lite weight car and gearing this is a pretty good combination.

My combo is based of a t-bird turbo motor with all forged internals. I have a round port head that is getting 'cleaned up" [nothing serious], a mild better than stock cam and surfacing to bring the compression up to about 9 to 1. I have a set of ranger headers modified to go into a 21/2 inch exhaust. The intake is a modified 4 brl Offy unit and to that i am going to do a throttle body EFI conversion. This makes a very reliable engine with sporty performance.

You say "only" 140/150 hp but you really have to consider the power to weight ratio. that is what really important. Consider you had a car that weights 3500lbs with a 300hp engine. that would be a power to weight ratio of 11.7 pounds per horspower.
Now consider that you have an engine that puts 150hp but you are dealing with a weight of only 2500 lbs. That would give you a power to weight ratio of 16 pounds per horsepower. will it be as quick? No it won't but it is not that far off the 300hp car and the 150 horsepower car will be pretty quick and safe to drive.

One last thought, there are a lot of cars out there with only about 200hp or less. If that 200hp motor is in a 3500lb car the PtoW ratio would be 17.5. see what I am getting at? so don't down play the 150hp motor because ina light weight pinto you will be quicker than a fair amount of cars and definately it will be safe to go play in traffic.

jim

Pale Roader · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2010, 07:52:03 AM »

Quote from: hellfirejim on February 07, 2010, 11:09:59 AM

it is a matter of expectations. For a good daily commute motor with good response around 140/150 hp is not to unusual and is doable. Combined with a lite weight car and gearing this is a pretty good combination.

Yeah, thats my 'stage 1' plan. I've been told from a few that did this and also a couple 2.3 Fox-body guys that have lightened their cars to Pinto weights that this should pretty much make a car that can hang with stock LX 5.0L's, or say a 96 Mustang GT with the early style 4.6/5spd. Thats not fast in my books, but its not bad for a really cheap car that gets impressive mileage, not to mention looks way cooler..

Quote

My combo is based of a t-bird turbo motor with all forged internals. I have a round port head that is getting 'cleaned up" [nothing serious], a mild better than stock cam and surfacing to bring the compression up to about 9 to 1. I have a set of ranger headers modified to go into a 21/2 inch exhaust. The intake is a modified 4 brl Offy unit and to that i am going to do a throttle body EFI conversion. This makes a very reliable engine with sporty performance.

You say "only" 140/150 hp but you really have to consider the power to weight ratio. that is what really important. Consider you had a car that weights 3500lbs with a 300hp engine. that would be a power to weight ratio of 11.7 pounds per horspower.
Now consider that you have an engine that puts 150hp but you are dealing with a weight of only 2500 lbs. That would give you a power to weight ratio of 16 pounds per horsepower. will it be as quick? No it won't but it is not that far off the 300hp car and the 150 horsepower car will be pretty quick and safe to drive.

Well actually my pinto will only be about 2000lbs, or less if i can, i'm a master ov weight-reduction. So a N/A 140-150HP 4-banger with a T5 and gears should move pretty quick. I also imagine that if i had a 240HP I4 stuffed in there with optimized trans and gears it would be in the realm ov 'fast'.

Quote

One last thought, there are a lot of cars out there with only about 200hp or less. If that 200hp motor is in a 3500lb car the PtoW ratio would be 17.5. see what I am getting at? so don't down play the 150hp motor because ina light weight pinto you will be quicker than a fair amount of cars and definately it will be safe to go play in traffic.

jim

Heh heh... well i'm certainly not concerned with 'safe'. That doesn't sound fun at all. I dont think i've ever had a 'safe' car in 20 years... But basically, i was just wondering how the 2.3 could potentially compare to the new Honda I4's in terms ov power and efficiency, even given the aftermarket available for the Ford. Not very well it seems.

hellfirejim · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2010, 12:55:30 PM »

Atually the 2.3 compares very favorably, particularly in reliability. You can really lean on these things and they hold up very well. it takes almost nothing more than stock parts [turbo long block] and the proper turbo and fuel injection upgrades to make 300hp. More can be made and I am here to tell you that if you don't kow what you are doing 400hp to the rear wheels can get you into trouble in a real hurry. For most the 300hp to the rear wheels will be faster than about 855 of most everything outthere. Step up to 400 real wheel hp and there is not much the will be able to hang in with you.
But it is like I said, it all depends on what you want.
jim

Pale Roader · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2010, 06:26:06 AM »

Quote from: hellfirejim on February 08, 2010, 12:55:30 PM

Atually the 2.3 compares very favorably, particularly in reliability. You can really lean on these things and they hold up very well. it takes almost nothing more than stock parts [turbo long block] and the proper turbo and fuel injection upgrades to make 300hp. More can be made and I am here to tell you that if you don't kow what you are doing 400hp to the rear wheels can get you into trouble in a real hurry. For most the 300hp to the rear wheels will be faster than about 855 of most everything outthere. Step up to 400 real wheel hp and there is not much the will be able to hang in with you.
But it is like I said, it all depends on what you want.
jim

I understand what you're saying, but if i wanted to go that fast, i'll just drive my Challenger. I know i'll piss off a bunch here, but i dont see why someone would go turbo-4 over a mild, or even stock SBF (289/302) install. The turbo will zoop as much gas, if not more than a small V8, and wont sound nearly as cool. But hey... i'm a V8 guy...

I'm just looking for a commuter. More than a daily driver, a long-range commuter (100 miles a day). But i just cannot drive a slow car. A commuter pinto needn't run 12's, but 88HP and highway gears just dont cut it, now matter HOW light it is. Heh... i tried to stay excited about driving my pinto, and it was fun because it had a stick and cost $300 (the cheaper they are, the more fun i find...), and it had 17's and Z-rated summer rubber. But straining to hold 22mph on long highway up-grades in 2nd... well, that got old fast.

I bet a 140HP N/A 2.3 with better trans and better gears and 400 less pounds will more than satisfy... but i just cannot stop thinking about those damn Hondas... . . .

Check this out:

2000-2005 (?) Honda S-2000 engine, inline-4, V-Tec DOHC, 2L, 11.1:1 CR, all aluminum, 240HP... NATURALLY ASPIRATED. The Japanese version... with its 11.7:1 CR, makes 247HP... on PUMP GAS. Backed by what many call the best 6spd RWD stick ever made, and 4.10 (i think) gears, the S-2000 goes high 13's and gets stooopid gas mileage. Just adding a GOOD set ov (set ov, listen to the V8 guy...) a really good headER, exhaust, air intake and tune, no internal mods, they can make 270+ HP. This sucker spins 9000RPM, but can putt around under 3000 if you need to save gas. The S-2000 is also a good 700-800lbs heavier than an early pinto would be with the same powertrain...

THAT... is my new watermark.

Just thinking out loud...

hellfirejim · « **Reply #14 on:** February 09, 2010, 06:41:15 AM »

I understand about the V8 deal but also consider that turbo 4 guys really enjoy spanking those V8s on about half the cubes....

I also realize that you think the honda motor is the greatest but you are comparing apples to pears. You have a 70s technology verse 2000 plus with all the latest technology. can't do it. Each should be judged on their own merit.

Here is an idea for you, swap the honda trans and engine into the Pinto. That way you could have the Pinto and the power of the Honda with all its realted computer gadgets and wiring and plumbing and all of that.

For me no thanks, I will stay with the 150hp 4cyl and enjoy it. My pinto has no problem staying up with traffic and it is very fun to drive.
BTW: The simplicity of the pinto system makes it very appealing in these days of cars being so complicated that you have to have $10,000 dollar tools to work on them.

but of course that is just my opinion.

Turbo Toy · « **Reply #15 on:** February 09, 2010, 07:20:50 AM »

Quote from: Pale Roader on February 09, 2010, 06:26:06 AM

I understand what you're saying, but if i wanted to go that fast, i'll just drive my Challenger. I know i'll piss off a bunch here, but i dont see why someone would go turbo-4 over a mild, or even stock SBF (289/302) install. The turbo will zoop as much gas, if not more than a small V8, and wont sound nearly as cool. But hey... i'm a V8 guy...

I'm just looking for a commuter. More than a daily driver, a long-range commuter (100 miles a day). But i just cannot drive a slow car. A commuter pinto needn't run 12's, but 88HP and highway gears just dont cut it, now matter HOW light it is. Heh... i tried to stay excited about driving my pinto, and it was fun because it had a stick and cost $300 (the cheaper they are, the more fun i find...), and it had 17's and Z-rated summer rubber. But straining to hold 22mph on long highway up-grades in 2nd... well, that got old fast.

I bet a 140HP N/A 2.3 with better trans and better gears and 400 less pounds will more than satisfy... but i just cannot stop thinking about those damn Hondas... . . .

Check this out:

2000-2005 (?) Honda S-2000 engine, inline-4, V-Tec DOHC, 2L, 11.1:1 CR, all aluminum, 240HP... NATURALLY ASPIRATED. The Japanese version... with its 11.7:1 CR, makes 247HP... on PUMP GAS. Backed by what many call the best 6spd RWD stick ever made, and 4.10 (i think) gears, the S-2000 goes high 13's and gets stooopid gas mileage. Just adding a GOOD set ov (set ov, listen to the V8 guy...) a really good headER, exhaust, air intake and tune, no internal mods, they can make 270+ HP. This sucker spins 9000RPM, but can putt around under 3000 if you need to save gas. The S-2000 is also a good 700-800lbs heavier than an early pinto would be with the same powertrain...

THAT... is my new watermark.

Just thinking out loud...

Well sir now. I'll be more than happy to outrun that Challenger of yours with my turbo four cylinder Pinto. My car is a true daily driver, I can run in the 10's in the quarter mile and I still get 23 MPG. Bring it on or STFU! Sounds to me like you need to go to a Mopar or

Honda site.

pintosopher · « **Reply #16 on:** February 09, 2010, 08:56:25 AM »

Ok Enough ...
PR , this is nothing more than Mental Mastur.......
I used to Work for Comptech USA in the early part of this decade, and I saw all the goodies and R&D that went on for Honda & Acura. This company had Multiple national championships in all kinds of Acura/Honda products.
I used to walk past a IMSA NSX powered Camel Lights prototype racer to punch in every day. There was a Indy Honda turbo V8 sitting on a stand that was the prototype motor. I smelled ethanol as I heard one or two Dyno cells running Full Chat for IRL Olds Auroura for Chip Gannasi and other teams.
The Point is .... I learned the difference between Dreaming and reality. When you see the Money that is thrown at Honda racing and how it trickles down into the consumer products, you realize that only Ford Cosworth came close to the current development in the old days of the '70's.
I Know what a S2000 is capable of and it takes Tech and complexity for that to happen in today's world. Like it simple? Live with the limitations of the Old school and forget the Hondas...
I Like my old school pinto, and if I was wealthy, it would have a Cosworth YB under the Hood .
The Honda would be the commuter /beater/runner.
Go to the magazine rack and look for Classic Ford magazine (UK version) and look what the English have done with their "old School rides. Maybe you'll see the light..

Done on this thread...

Pintosopher

turbopinto72 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2010, 09:28:59 AM »

HEHEHE, Ok, dont listen to Chris cuz his panties are allways in a wad......

Getting back on topic now........... ............

71pintoracer · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2010, 07:40:07 PM »

Quote from: Pale Roader on February 09, 2010, 06:26:06 AM

I understand what you're saying, but if i wanted to go that fast, i'll just drive my Challenger. I know i'll piss off a bunch here, but i dont see why someone would go turbo-4 over a mild, or even stock SBF (289/302) install. The turbo will zoop as much gas, if not more than a small V8, and wont sound nearly as cool. But hey... i'm a V8 guy...

Ummm, as a V8 Pinto owner, I have to disagree a little. I get about 16 mpg. A turbo 4 will do much better on gas, is lighter and with the proper tuning will haul freight. I heard a turbo 4 on youtube and it sounded bad a$$. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound and power of my V8, but I would like to have a turbo 4 as well!

As far as the Honda, yea, apples and oranges. An all aluminum DOHC v-tech vs. an old school iron sohc, no comparing the two.

Pale Roader · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2010, 04:40:45 AM »

Quote from: hellfirejim on February 09, 2010, 06:41:15 AM

I understand about the V8 deal but also consider that turbo 4 guys really enjoy spanking those V8s on about half the cubes....

I also realize that you think the honda motor is the greatest but you are comparing apples to pears. You have a 70s technology verse 2000 plus with all the latest technology. can't do it. Each should be judged on their own merit.

Yeah well, that was kinda the point ov this thread. I figured that because the Ford has such a big aftermarket, it might have a chance. I told you guys i dont know much about these engines.

Quote

Here is an idea for you, swap the honda trans and engine into the Pinto. That way you could have the Pinto and the power of the Honda with all its realted computer gadgets and wiring and plumbing and all of that.

For me no thanks, I will stay with the 150hp 4cyl and enjoy it. My pinto has no problem staying up with traffic and it is very fun to drive.

Probably would if i could. Sounds like i'd end up spending all themoney i'd save on gas on the damn swap though...

Quote

BTW: The simplicity of the pinto system makes it very appealing in these days of cars being so complicated that you have to have $10,000 dollar tools to work on them.

but of course that is just my opinion.

Yes, dont get me wrong, that IS an appeal. I like simple. BUT... on the other hand, i've been driving, and (been driven nuts by) old cars for 20 years. The new technology has OBVIOUS appeal, and is all new to me. I love driving my girlfriend's 96GT 4.6 Mustang... and its not exactly fast.

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Author Topic: A few N/A HP questions... (Read 912 times)